Speaking of Israel...

[Idaho]

Israel cancelling the ceasefire because one of the soldiers it sent in to kill civilians is kidnapped. No further comment needed.

Anyone posted up the idf soldier's social media comment about his great success in killing kids?

[Pannonian]

Israel cancelling the ceasefire because one of the soldiers it sent in to kill civilians is kidnapped. No further comment needed.

Anyone posted up the idf soldier's social media comment about his great success in killing kids?

Why don't you?

[Rhyfelwyr]

A handful of town councils in Britain have taken to flying Palestine flags to "raise awareness" about the situation in Gaza. It is not surprising to see it in Muslim areas like Bradford or Tower Hamlets, but strangely it has also happened at my local council building...

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/sc...-scots-3940647

The immigrant community here is tiny, I suspect it is because our council is run by Republicans such as this guy. Note how he supports Irish football teams, his favourite bands include Irish rebel music, and his only inspirational figures given is Karl Marx. Yeah, guys like that are my democratic representatives, LOL!

Anyway, to bring it back to topic, this should not be allowed, councils should not be picking sides in foreign conflicts like this, especially when there is no clear cut 'good guy' to side with. I doubt we have much of a Jewish community but this sort of things may well be offensive to them. Apparently a British-Jewish organisation has already voiced their concerns about it. Certainly, I don't think it is a good idea when the conflict has caused a huge surge in antisemitic attacks in Britain. The council should be backing peace not picking sides.

[Pannonian]

A handful of town councils in Britain have taken to flying Palestine flags to "raise awareness" about the situation in Gaza. It is not surprising to see it in Muslim areas like Bradford or Tower Hamlets, but strangely it has also happened at my local council building...

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/sc...-scots-3940647

The immigrant community here is tiny, I suspect it is because our council is run by Republicans such as this guy. Note how he supports Irish football teams, his favourite bands include Irish rebel music, and his only inspirational figures given is Karl Marx. Yeah, guys like that are my democratic representatives, LOL!

Anyway, to bring it back to topic, this should not be allowed, councils should not be picking sides in foreign conflicts like this, especially when there is no clear cut 'good guy' to side with. I doubt we have much of a Jewish community but this sort of things may well be offensive to them. Apparently a British-Jewish organisation has already voiced their concerns about it. Certainly, I don't think it is a good idea when the conflict has caused a huge surge in antisemitic attacks in Britain. The council should be backing peace not picking sides.

I'd support any council that said "To hell with them both".

[Beskar]

I'd support any council that said "To hell with them both".

What about this?

[rvg]

What about this?

It's missing a unicorn.

[HoreTore]

A handful of town councils in Britain have taken to flying Palestine flags to "raise awareness" about the situation in Gaza. It is not surprising to see it in Muslim areas like Bradford or Tower Hamlets, but strangely it has also happened at my local council building...

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/sc...-scots-3940647

The immigrant community here is tiny, I suspect it is because our council is run by Republicans such as this guy. Note how he supports Irish football teams, his favourite bands include Irish rebel music, and his only inspirational figures given is Karl Marx. Yeah, guys like that are my democratic representatives, LOL!

Anyway, to bring it back to topic, this should not be allowed, councils should not be picking sides in foreign conflicts like this, especially when there is no clear cut 'good guy' to side with. I doubt we have much of a Jewish community but this sort of things may well be offensive to them. Apparently a British-Jewish organisation has already voiced their concerns about it. Certainly, I don't think it is a good idea when the conflict has caused a huge surge in antisemitic attacks in Britain. The council should be backing peace not picking sides.

Yeah, political councils acting all political-like, what gives?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Israel cancelling the ceasefire because one of the soldiers it sent in to kill civilians is kidnapped. No further comment needed.

Anyone posted up the idf soldier's social media comment about his great success in killing kids?

Idaho:

While I am more than willing to ding Israeli leadership for being cavalier about "collateral damage" (which the numbers make readily demonstrable) it is another thing entirely to imply that they have a policy directive for killing civilians.

Are they collecting ears or paying bounties now? Perhaps the time-honored process of scalping for proof is being used....

If you are that adamantly certain that it is not hard-hearted negligence but active pogromatic policy, why aren't you wearing a keffiyeh as part of the "Legion of Lawrence" and working to rid the world of Zionist evil?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

What about this?

A beautiful image....but only the two hands depicted can make it happen. External efforts are past pointless and approaching farce.

[Kadagar_AV]

It's missing a unicorn.

And I think everyone should get a unicorn for free...

I respect your solution, but the odds of it happening in this century is extremely bad, to say the least.

GEEZ, at least source me when using my exact witticism in the exact same thread...

[Fragony]

Another 7 hour ceasefire for humanitarian reasons rejected by Hamas, way to go

The abduction of a soldier was a bullshit-reason from Israel of course, won't argue otherwise

[Ironside]

A beautiful image....but only the two hands depicted can make it happen. External efforts are past pointless and approaching farce.

True, but dropping the Israeli carte blanche would probably help Israel to go back to the negiation in good faith. The West Bank staying quiet will, according to current Israeli policies be rewarded by expanded settlements.

Be a good or bad Palestinian, current Israeli goverment will still treat you as dirt.

[Fragony]

How would they treat the Israeli's if they wouldn't be treated like dirt. Maybe that is just what they simply are.

If they are not, who's to blame really, Israel or the continious attempts of their goverments to not come to a solution.

[Pannonian]

How would they treat the Israeli's if they wouldn't be treated like dirt. Maybe that is just what they simply are.

If they are not, who's to blame really, Israel or the continious attempts of their goverments to not come to a solution.

As far as international law goes, taking over the territory of another people has always been regarded as a casus belli, and iusta causa for the people being encroached on to take whatever measures they wish against the invader. This has been the case for as far back as there has been an understanding of conflict, and even further, if we look at the behaviour of animals, such as the experiment with sticklebacks which showed that an animal in its own territory will feel more confident about a contest, while an animal in another's territory will feel less confident. Even if you, and you do, regard the Palestinians as a people with no right to exist, the Israeli state has agreements with the Palestinian state that recognise each other, or at least with the rump state that's in control of the West Bank. And yet Israel continues to snip away at the West Bank. In that area at least, there is no question about who is right and who is wrong. Israel is an invader.

I'd like you to come up with an argument that shows that Israel is in the right for building settlements in the West Bank that are not subject to the Palestinian authorities.

[Fragony]

Casus Belli means a justified war, as far as I can see, it seems to be a completily justified war.

[Pannonian]

Casus Belli means a justified war, as far as I can see, it seems to be a completily justified war.

So would the West Bank Palestinians be completely justified in taking any measures possible to expel the Israelis from the Palestinian West Bank as defined in agreements between the Palestinian state and the Israeli state?

[Fragony]

So would the West Bank Palestinians be completely justified in taking any measures possible to expel the Israelis from the Palestinian West Bank as defined in agreements between the Palestinian state and the Israeli state?

It alll started in 1948, I am of the 1977 variety. Palestian state, sure why not. i look forward to admiring everything they build there. But there isn't any sign of anything at all there is there.

[Pannonian]

It alll started in 1948, I am of the 1977 variety. Palestian state, sure why not. i look forward to admiring everything they build there. But there isn't any sign of anything at all there is there.

If your beef is with what the Palestinians have failed to build there, you can back your Israeli friends to stay on the West Bank. All they need to do is follow Palestinian laws and pay all the fees, rents and taxes that are due to the Palestinian authorities, and they'll be allowed to stay there for as long as the Palestinian authorities allow them to. And if they want an irrevocable right to stay there, they can take up Palestinian citizenship as well. What's your view on this, other than another snide attempt to dodge the question?

[Fragony]

If your beef is with what the Palestinians have failed to build there, you can back your Israeli friends to stay on the West Bank. All they need to do is follow Palestinian laws and pay all the fees, rents and taxes that are due to the Palestinian authorities, and they'll be allowed to stay there for as long as the Palestinian authorities allow them to. And if they want an irrevocable right to stay there, they can take up Palestinian citizenship as well. What's your view on this, other than another snide attempt to dodge the question?

There is only one question, do they want a state. Any pragmatism would say no, because that state would become a target itself by more radical groups. We have seen the same happining between Fatah and Hamas, and who can really tell it's Hamas firing rockets or a a group that's absolutily not interested in peace like Islamic Jihad, also active there.

Edit, I got no pro-isreali friends or rightwing friens in general by the way. All my friends are either leftist, or absolutily apolitical. Yes that causes conversations. I think they are idiots. Still love them.

[Beskar]

A beautiful image....but only the two hands depicted can make it happen. External efforts are past pointless and approaching farce.

It requires two visionary leaders to be able to pull it off. A proper and equal peace would benefit both Israel and Palestine.

Did you know that Israel imports people from the Philippines to work in their fields, etc, to replace the jobs the Palestinians did? If there was a proper peace, the Palestinians could end up taking that work again and Israel could lift the embargo's, allowing free and prosperous trade to flow into Palestine, which could allow the nation to build itself up and end up forming a mutual partnership of good will.

I would love such a solution to come about, but it feels that sometimes the conflict will only be 'ended' if one side wins, hence my other solution of trying to do the best for the Palestinian people as the 'losers'.

[Pannonian]

It requires two visionary leaders to be able to pull it off. A proper and equal peace would benefit both Israel and Palestine.

Did you know that Israel imports people from the Philippines to work in their fields, etc, to replace the jobs the Palestinians did? If there was a proper peace, the Palestinians could end up taking that work again and Israel could lift the embargo's, allowing free and prosperous trade to flow into Palestine, which could allow the nation to build itself up and end up forming a mutual partnership of good will.

I would love such a solution to come about, but it feels that sometimes the conflict will only be 'ended' if one side wins, hence my other solution of trying to do the best for the Palestinian people as the 'losers'.

Filipinos don't belong there, and can be legally kicked off as soon as they outlive their usefulness. Palestinians are different, and Israel has obligations whatever status they eventually settle on, whether they're citizens of a Palestinian state, refugees of a Palestinian state, citizens of an Israeli state, guests of an Israeli state, or whatever. Hence you get attempts of people like Frag to deny them any kind of status, relieving Israel of all responsibility and making them a legal anomaly simply for being. According to those arguments, Palestinians have no legal right to exist.

[Fragony]

Filipinos don't belong there, and can be legally kicked off as soon as they outlive their usefulness. Palestinians are different, and Israel has obligations whatever status they eventually settle on, whether they're citizens of a Palestinian state, refugees of a Palestinian state, citizens of an Israeli state, guests of an Israeli state, or whatever. Hence you get attempts of people like Frag to deny them any kind of status, relieving Israel of all responsibility and making them a legal anomaly simply for being. According to those arguments, Palestinians have no legal right to exist.

Don't put words in my my mouth, I am ok with a state for them, so is Israel. You should have a chat with so e friends who are from there, they can explain very well what Hamas really is and how their life is under their rule. I condemn a vicious regime, nothing else.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Some rough figures:

Israel's total population is 8.1 million, with 6.1 million Jews and 2.0 million Arabs.
The West Bank's population is 2.6 million, with 2.3 million Arabs and 0.3 million Jews.
Gaza's population is 1.7 million of entirely Arabs.

Now, if we consider what would happen if Israel were to integrate either or both the Palestinian territories, giving full rights as Israeli citizens to their inhabitants (probably the only viable/palatable situation should integration be agreed upon), we would get the following figures:

Option 1. Annexation of both Palestinian territories - the Israeli state would have a population of 12.4 million, of which 6.4 million would be Jews and 6.0 million would be Arabs. Such a precarious Jewish minority would never work and would be seen as a threat to the nature of Israel as a Jewish homeland. I can not see this working in anywhere near the foreseeable future.

Option 2. Annexation of the West Bank only - the Israeli state would have a population of 10.7 million, of which 6.4 million would be Jews and 4.3 million would be Arabs. I think this solution poses the same problem as above, as although the Jewish majority would be somewhat less fragile, alarm bells would be ringing given the population explosion see in the Arab population. This would make the Jewish population too nervy. Plus, Gaza would never, IMO, survive as an independent state. The only path it could take would be annexation by Egypt, and given the relationship between Hamas and Egypt's current rulership, I don't think that would create a healthier situation than the present. Annexation of just the West Bank seems the worst of all option, IMO.

Option 3. Annexation of Gaza only - the Israeli state would have a population of 9.8 million, of which 6.1 million would be Jews and 3.7 million would be Arabs. I can just about (barely) see this allowing for Israel to exist as a Jewish state with a Jewish majority that will appease its Jewish population. A further option would be to negotiate the removal of Israeli settlements in the West Bank in return for East Jerusalem being annexed along with Gaza, with a population transfer between West Bank settlers and the Arabs of East Jerusalem. This would bring 0.3 million Jews back to Israel, and transfer the 0.25 million Arabs of East Jerusalem to the autonomous West Bank area. This would give Israel a secure capital city, and rounding up, the Israeli state would have a population of 9.9 million, of which 6.4 million would be Jews, and 3.5 million would be Arabs. As well as securing a more acceptable (or rather, for us, workable) Jewish majority than with Option 2, this leaves a more viable state than Gaza, in the form of the West Bank. The West Bank could stand far better on its own that Gaza, but if it was to be integrated into a neighbouring country, it also has better option. Unlike Egypt, Jordan is essentially a Palestinian state, and many Jordanians are very sympathetic to Fatah.

Some things to mull over there. And I'm not double-checking those figures, btw!.

[Fragony]

Keep it as it is, shoot back if shoot upon, otherwise let leave the palies be. No more settlement though. Learn how to build appartment buildings if it get too crowdy, and point a finger at hardcore jews and laugh at them really hard before ignoring them.

Alas, problem solved

[Beskar]

Some things to mull over there. And I'm not double-checking those figures, btw!.

You didn't include the Palestinian refugees in Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. It is one of those 'hot points' as part of the Palestinian demands is to allow them all to return. These are also mistreated in their respective countries as well and denied citizenship.

[Papewaio]

It alll started in 1948, I am of the 1977 variety. Palestian state, sure why not. i look forward to admiring everything they build there. But there isn't any sign of anything at all there is there.

Modem Israel formed in 1948 but it did not start in 1948. You have to go back decades and the interesting thing is the methods that the founders used to create such a state.

Take a guess who wrote this:
"I should much rather see reasonable agreement with the Arabs on the basis of living together in peace than the creation of a Jewish state. My awareness of the essential nature of Judaism resists the idea of a Jewish state with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power, no matter how modest. I am afraid of the inner damage Judaism will sustain—especially from the development of a narrow nationalism within our own ranks, against which we have already had to fight strongly, even without a Jewish state. ... If external necessity should after all compel us to assume this burden, let us bear it with tact and patience." -Wiki

[Kralizec]

Keep it as it is, shoot back if shoot upon, otherwise let leave the palies be. No more settlement though. Learn how to build appartment buildings if it get too crowdy, and point a finger at hardcore jews and laugh at them really hard before ignoring them.

Alas, problem solved

That's basicly the entire plan of the Likud party. Actually, only the "keep it as it is, shoot back" part. And sadly, it looks like they'll be in power for quite a while.

The great paradox is that the majority of Israelites have an unfavourable opinion of settlers and support, in theory, and independent Palestinian state. But the settlers are such a powerful minority in Israel that mainstream politicians don't dare to cross them. I refuse to buy products made by Israeli settlements on the west bank, and I encourage others to do the same. In other words, I boycott them. If I had said that in Israel, I would be prosecuted.

The Lidud party's charter explicitly rules out the possiblity of an independent Palestinian state. They act as if they're open to the possibility nowadays, but in fact Netanyahu hasn't made the slightest effort to make that happen. Construction of new settlements happens almost without interruption. If the Palestinians do something remotely annoying (like getting member status in the UN assembly - something that logically comes with self determination) settlements are errected at an increased rate. Knowing full well that in Israel, there will never be enough political will to dismantle them all.

[lars573]

You didn't include the Palestinian refugees in Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. It is one of those 'hot points' as part of the Palestinian demands is to allow them all to return. These are also mistreated in their respective countries as well and denied citizenship.

Consider this though. For every Palestinian that ran to those Arab states in 1948 there was a Jew who left those same Arab states and came to Israel. As far as Israel is concerned a population exchange happened.

[Ironside]

That's basicly the entire plan of the Likud party. Actually, only the "keep it as it is, shoot back" part. And sadly, it looks like they'll be in power for quite a while.

Add, "find an excuse to provoke enough to start the shooting."

Netanyahu's "Hamas totally did it, even if all signs points otherwise, but won't be public until they leak" is sort of hard to explain otherwise.

[Fragony]

Add, "find an excuse to provoke enough to start the shooting."

Netanyahu's "Hamas totally did it, even if all signs points otherwise, but won't be public until they leak" is sort of hard to explain otherwise.

That is nonsense imho, Hamas is like the annoying schoolkid that keeps pinching you in the arm untill you hit him, than he runs of crying and hides under the teachers skirt. Israel should hit back much harder when endlessly being attacked. Just because they have the better weapons doesn't mean it isn't justified. As we say here, if you burn your ass you will just have to sit on the blisters.