Speaking of Israel...

Originally Posted by Kralizec

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053610515
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053607569
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053607483
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053607241

Summary: you think we should all stop criticizing Israel because we never talk about ISIS, which is worse.

Yeas I said all that and it's exactly how I feel about it. I will going to be hypocrite about something else, this one is taken.

Originally Posted by Fragony

Yeas I said all that and it's exactly how I feel about it. I will going to be hypocrite about something else, this one is taken.

North Korea is worse than ISIS.

Following your logic, you should shut up about ISIS and make a thread on Dearest Leader.

Originally Posted by HoreTore

North Korea is worse than ISIS.

Following your logic, you should shut up about ISIS and make a thread on Dearest Leader.

The misery that North-Korea is is well known. Less known is how big the support for IS is within our borders. You are absolutily correct that these 74% don't mean anything. But the support or at least sympathising seems high, rather dubious facebook and twitter accounts get a lot of love.

Originally Posted by Fragony

But the support or at least sympathising seems high, rather dubious facebook and twitter accounts get a lot of love.

I have noted a high rate of outrageous facebook statements from muslim youth. Generalizing this and thinking it represents anything but an insignificant minority is quite dangerous, however.

If we generalized the abundance of insane statements on facebook and twitter from the native populations, you'd think we were all living in a weird libertarian version of the third reich where women are confined to the kitchen. Take the Neo-nazis. They're extremely few, but you can find plenty of them in any comments section.


The crazies are loud and active. They dominate the intertubes, but they do not dominate real life. Fortunately.

Originally Posted by HoreTore

I have noted a high rate of outrageous facebook statements from muslim youth. Generalizing this and thinking it represents anything but an insignificant minority is quite dangerous, however.

If we generalized the abundance of insane statements on facebook and twitter from the native populations, you'd think we were all living in a weird libertarian version of the third reich where women are confined to the kitchen. Take the Neo-nazis. They're extremely few, but you can find plenty of them in any comments section.


The crazies are loud and active. They dominate the intertubes, but they do not dominate real life. Fortunately.

I am not dumb, I fully understand these 74% don't mean all that much. Cautious though.

Originally Posted by Fragony

I didn't know that, but it's hard to consider something a first strike when war has been declared.

How about before Israel was even declared a state?

The King David Hotel bombing?
The ethnic cleansing of a village?
Fighting the British whilst the British fought the Nazis?

There are things even now with deadlier technology and higher population densities that the ultra nationalists did that make what is happening now look like a sideshow. Not orders of magnitude worse but two or three times more deadly.

Sorry to say Frags, but your arguments come off as rather thin...

You know I am no big fan of Arabic culture, but they most def are not the sole evil working in the region. Both the Jewish and the Arabic cultures are problematic towards each other, on a very much mutual scale.

Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Sorry to say Frags, but your arguments come off as rather thin...

You know I am no big fan of Arabic culture, but they most def are not the sole evil working in the region. Both the Jewish and the Arabic cultures are problematic towards each other, on a very much mutual scale.

No agreement required. Israel gave back enough land imho. It isn't a war they started themselve. Borders change in wars. It would be nice if the settling stopped but I don't see it as the great unjustice some see it, gambled and lost.

Originally Posted by Fragony

No agreement required. Israel gave back enough land imho. It isn't a war they started themselve. Borders change in wars. It would be nice if the settling stopped but I don't see it as the great unjustice some see it, gambled and lost.

And now there is supposedly peace between Israel and the West Bank authorities, yet Israel continues to take land from the West Bank, which is an act of war. If you want to complain about the Gazans unilaterally making war on Israel, you can also complain about the Israelis unilaterally making war on the West Bank. At least I recognise all sides as being as bad as each other and none of them wanting peace, while you try to paint the Israelis white and peace-loving.

Originally Posted by Pannonian

And now there is supposedly peace between Israel and the West Bank authorities, yet Israel continues to take land from the West Bank, which is an act of war. If you want to complain about the Gazans unilaterally making war on Israel, you can also complain about the Israelis unilaterally making war on the West Bank. At least I recognise all sides as being as bad as each other and none of them wanting peace, while you try to paint the Israelis white and peace-loving.

I don't see Israel as peace loving, that would be kinda silly. But judging them for doing what they do is a stretch too far for me. They can't give back the west-bank, that is just as rolling on your back to expose your belly, artillary can hit anything from there. Why give a crap about UN resolutions, they are worth as much as the Nobel peace price. Without excusing Israel I am not going to judge them for being the way they are. I would be much more forgiving I think, but I can't know that really.

The two stretches of land were part of Egypt and Jordan, as things currently stand they are not viable entities for bieng states - hell, even Wales doesn't want to go it alone as they prefer to be a remora fish.

Having enclaves that have no hope whatsoever of being self sufficient - even if the blockades were not in place - is not sustainable. Add that to the power plant and water treatment facilities being clear military targets to Israel means things aren't going to improve.

Originally Posted by Pannonian

And now there is supposedly peace between Israel and the West Bank authorities, yet Israel continues to take land from the West Bank, which is an act of war. If you want to complain about the Gazans unilaterally making war on Israel, you can also complain about the Israelis unilaterally making war on the West Bank. At least I recognise all sides as being as bad as each other and none of them wanting peace, while you try to paint the Israelis white and peace-loving.

Israel has announced plans to expropriate 4 sq km of Palestinian land in the occupied West Bank.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-29008045

Taking more land? How out of character! I hope this doesn't upset the peace process...

I love how all BBC websites end with this annexation is illegal under international law - although Israel disputes this.

Are we to see prisoners locked up in jail for breaking the law - although the criminals dispute the law in question.

It seems even Israeli's are getting fed up with killing innocent civilians.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middle...625499623.html

Originally Posted by HopAlongBunny

It seems even Israeli's are getting fed up with killing innocent civilians.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middle...625499623.html

That's absolutily something, but where did you read the 'killing innocent civilians' part. Article doesn't say that.

Originally Posted by Fragony

That's absolutily something, but where did you read the 'killing innocent civilians' part. Article doesn't say that.

Here:

Originally Posted by Article

"There's no distinction between Palestinians who are, and are not, involved in violence, we cannot continue to serve this system in good conscience, denying the rights of millions of people" they wrote.

Originally Posted by HoreTore

Here:

I don't read it like that but suit yourself, nothing there about killing, just injustice. Definatily a slap in the face for Israel officials who might want to reconsider some things.

Originally Posted by Fragony

I don't read it like that but suit yourself, nothing there about killing, just injustice. Definatily a slap in the face for Israel officials who might want to reconsider some things.

Also read the bit about operations having nothing to do with security, but are about increasing control of the West Bank. Which claim is backed up by Israel announcing that they'll be building homes in the areas they're annexing. Israel isn't putting a buffer between Israeli citizens and Palestinians, they're taking land from the Palestinians and turning it into Israeli land, which then becomes further justification for more land grabs.

Originally Posted by Pannonian

Also read the bit about operations having nothing to do with security, but are about increasing control of the West Bank. Which claim is backed up by Israel announcing that they'll be building homes in the areas they're annexing. Israel isn't putting a buffer between Israeli citizens and Palestinians, they're taking land from the Palestinians and turning it into Israeli land, which then becomes further justification for more land grabs.

Yes and my best guess would be that it's about that, but not about killing innocent civilians. Doing injustice to millions, debatable, probably true.

Originally Posted by Pannonian

Also read the bit about operations having nothing to do with security, but are about increasing control of the West Bank. Which claim is backed up by Israel announcing that they'll be building homes in the areas they're annexing. Israel isn't putting a buffer between Israeli citizens and Palestinians, they're taking land from the Palestinians and turning it into Israeli land, which then becomes further justification for more land grabs.

We should be thankful that those Israeli settlers in the unauthorized communities don't speak Russian....who knows who would annex whom under such conditions.

Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

We should be thankful that those Israeli settlers in the unauthorized communities don't speak Russian....who knows who would annex whom under such conditions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian...iv,_Israel.jpg

Though I hear tell that there's some tension between Ukrainian Jews and Russian Jews in Israel currently.

I absolve myself of any responsibility to care about Israel since it was all the European's fault (in particular the Brits):



And yes, I am posting this video simply because I think it will rustle the jimmies of many people here.

Looks pretty good to me.

Why would anyone disagree with this being yet another zone of endless conflict that's caused by the British?

Originally Posted by Husar

Looks pretty good to me.

Why would anyone disagree with this being yet another zone of endless conflict that's caused by the British?

We threw our crap over a wider area than anyone else in history, so someone somewhere is bound to be spattered by it. Our excuse is that our crap didn't smell quite as bad as that of some others, and in throwing our crap around, we managed to fertilise some roses in the process.

Originally Posted by Husar

Looks pretty good to me.

Why would anyone disagree with this being yet another zone of endless conflict that's caused by the British?

Most complaints I have seen about the video are focused more on the later half of the video. You know, people give a "my side is clearly more of a victim than the other so this video is making a false equivalence" kind of argument.

Originally Posted by Pannonian

We threw our crap over a wider area than anyone else in history, so someone somewhere is bound to be spattered by it. Our excuse is that our crap didn't smell quite as bad as that of some others, and in throwing our crap around, we managed to fertilise some roses in the process.

Actually, that's not too far off as analogies go.

Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

I absolve myself of any responsibility to care about Israel since it was all the European's fault (in particular the Brits):

I'm still trying to get my head around why, after so much grief during our tenure as an empire, any briton thought getting involved in the middle east was a good idea now we no longer were allowed to tax the locals.

Originally Posted by Husar

Looks pretty good to me.

Why would anyone disagree with this being yet another zone of endless conflict that's caused by the British?

Wasnt it your nation who dragged the Ottomans into a war against the world's largest empire who was looking for an excuse rob the old man of europe's carcass?

Originally Posted by Greyblades

Wasnt it your nation who dragged the Ottomans into a war against the world's largest empire who was looking for an excuse rob the old man of europe's carcass?

Maybe, but it was not our fault that the war went the way it did, with Britain on our side, there'd be less unexploded ordinance all over France and Belgium now. Hitler wouldn't have happened either. But Britain always wanted to keep the tension in Europe because it wanted a divided Europe that it could control while it murdered and pillaged in the rest of the world.

Originally Posted by Husar

Maybe, but it was not our fault that the war went the way it did, with Britain on our side, there'd be less unexploded ordinance all over France and Belgium now. Hitler wouldn't have happened either. But Britain always wanted to keep the tension in Europe because it wanted a divided Europe that it could control while it murdered and pillaged in the rest of the world.

And a sound strategy it was too. It was the whole point of the Seven Years War, which allowed us to deprive France of her empire (and make it ours instead). If it weren't for that traitorous turncoat British officer...

Originally Posted by Husar

Maybe, but it was not our fault that the war went the way it did, with Britain on our side, there'd be less unexploded ordinance all over France and Belgium now. Hitler wouldn't have happened either. But Britain always wanted to keep the tension in Europe because it wanted a divided Europe that it could control while it murdered and pillaged in the rest of the world.

Bah, if we hadn't kept you fighting eachother you would have ruled the world in our stead, and we all know how badly that went under the spanish let alone the slices of africa we let you have.

We screwed you guys over to protect the world from mainland tyranny.

Except france. They weren't worse than us, it's just funny watching them throw a fit, man did that backfire.