Speaking of Israel...

[Greyblades]

PVC He's already bowed out, kindly reserve your mud slinging for someone who is actually asking for it.

I was talking about two statements in the same post, did it take you a day to write it?

Technically I have been thinking about this over several days, I was referring to my revision between the sentiment that shame has no benefit to one of shame having benefit but the degree of despair rory showed is far too much for the amount of wrong our history bears, especially when compared to the shame of other nationalities with similar atrocity to thier names.

Yeah, it was nice and all, but led directly to two World Wars which we started and lost...
A peaceful unification would have been preferable but not achievable due to the hostility of/conflict with the neighbors.

That would have been ideal, but ideals require consensus to be carried out painlessly, not even Bismark was able to wrestle germany from austria through diplomacy alone and what his successors did with the empire his generation left them does not detract from their accomplisments.

In the end all that conflict also unloaded onto the neighbors during the World Wars.
Part of why we decided to drop the conflict and hostilities for the most part after WW2.
And it's your conflict-loving, proud nation that keeps moaning about our peaceful union.

It would be wierd if it was a meek peace loving nation that complained about your union.

On my part: my objections with your union is that it's headed by a bunch of political retirees past thier prime who are propped up far past the point they should have failed. It's the same thought I have about scottish independance, it might have a place in the future, but it wont be a happy one unless it finds a better alternatve to the current leadership.

That's your interpretation, but I do not think that proud Russians would see any of those internal "issues" as issues or think that those things are shameful. They do not quite think like British people, different customs, mentality, culture etc.

I suppose, but if any of us are an indication I doubt the country that once made the world tremble at it's whims is completely over the downsizing it suffered in the 90's.

You mean it is impossible that I could exist without the industrial revolution? I'm not a test tube baby...

The physical being that is husar might exist, but the culmination of education, ideals and experience that composes the person I'm talking to would be impossible without the influences of the societal changes brought on by the industrial revolution.

And taking pride in something that happened due to random chance and that one didn't even remotely take part in is completely nonsensical. You also kind of forgot to read my last post it seems.

Eh, honestly didnt notice that one until after I posted.

Random chance? I suppose, go down that path of thought long enough and you end up in the realm of predeterminism: that none of what you do is actually down to any self determination but merely a highly complex organic machine reacting to external stimuli. An automaton that has fooled itself into thinking it has any manner of choice. I am not that cynical just yet.

As for my involvment: yes, I wasnt there. There is however the comfort knowing that people like me, with the same language, manner and, to a degree, lineage managed to achieve greatness, and that they have left behind so much to provide my generation with even more potential than they had. If nothing else is a legitimate reason to be proud, it is knowing that so much is proven possible for the category I find myself a part.

The challenge will be living up to that potential without further burdening the conscience of the following generations.

[Husar]

Technically I have been thinking about this over several days, I was referring to my revision between the sentiment that shame has no benefit to one of shame having benefit but the degree of despair rory showed is far too much for the amount of wrong our history bears, especially when compared to the shame of other nationalities with similar atrocity to thier names.
That would have been ideal, but ideals require consensus to be carried out painlessly, not even Bismark was able to wrestle germany from austria through diplomacy alone and what his successors did with the empire his generation left them does not detract from their accomplisments.
[...]
The physical being that is husar might exist, but the culmination of education, ideals and experience that composes the person I'm talking to would be impossible without the influences of the societal changes brought on by the industrial revolution.
Eh, honestly didnt notice that one until after I posted.
[...]
Random chance? I suppose, go down that path of thought long enough and you end up in the realm of predeterminism: that none of what you do is actually down to any self determination but merely a highly complex organic machine reacting to external stimuli. An automaton that has fooled itself into thinking it has any manner of choice. I am not that cynical just yet.

As for my involvment: yes, I wasnt there. There is however the comfort knowing that people like me, with the same language, manner and, to a degree, lineage managed to achieve greatness, and that they have left behind so much to provide my generation with even more potential than they had. If nothing else is a legitimate reason to be proud, it is knowing that so much is proven possible for the category I find myself a part.

The challenge will be living up to that potential without further burdening the conscience of the following generations.

I put these together to break through the ever-expanding number of quotes per post and because all of it is related in a way.
First of all, is it cynical to accept a reality? You say the person I am is a result of all the stimuli I got up to this point in life, yet you think we can determine who we are and what we do?
If the mistakes of those who follow us cannot be blamed upon us, yet they can take pride in being formed by our legacy, then I think we have a logical conflict.
Maybe you can take pride in what you do with the legacy of your forefathers, if you have any great say in what you do, but more likely you can be thankful for what they left you with and how they raised you, although that may not be their achievement either but just a function of the stimuli they received themselves. In the end though, even if your brain is an automaton, it is still you and you are your brain. If there were a soul without any physical manifestation that can make completely free decisions, then there would be a sane person behind every mentally ill person or person with brain damage that would be able to determine the damage on a meta-level, like a soul trapped inside a broken machine. This seems impossible to prove however and I'm not aware of any indicators that this may be the case. For all intents and purposes, a decision is the result of the working of the neural network we call our brain. Psychiatrics and others work with the repeatable and predictable patterns that most of these machines show in order to fix them if they have adopted thought patterns that are detrimental to the individual or society.

Pride is a mechanism of this machine that ultimately deludes the machine into thinking that it has reached some sort of superiority over the other machines of its kind, or at least, superiority over a subset. Therefore the fact that I blame Britain for this or that should in no way affect your thankfulness for the improvements your forefathers left you, it can only affect your sense of pride and therefore your feeling of superiority if you delude yourself into thinking, even if subconsciously, that you are somehow superior to e.g. me now because of the things your forefathers did or did not do and the things my forefathers did or did not do.
To me however, the things your forefathers did or did not do do not change my idea of overall equality between the two of us today. If you become a banker or lawyer for HSBC tomorrow, that may change however.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This post is a result of ongoing brain processes and was written without further refinement or self-review. If you find any fault in the logic of this post, please help my brain rewire and prevent such faulty behavior in the future by pointing out the fault. Thank you.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

PVC He's already bowed out, kindly reserve your mud slinging for someone who is actually asking for it.

OK.

Everything you write sounds like me at 16, before I knew any better.

Happy?

[Greyblades]

I put these together to break through the ever-expanding number of quotes per post and because all of it is related in a way.
First of all, is it cynical to accept a reality? You say the person I am is a result of all the stimuli I got up to this point in life, yet you think we can determine who we are and what we do?
If the mistakes of those who follow us cannot be blamed upon us, yet they can take pride in being formed by our legacy, then I think we have a logical conflict.
Maybe you can take pride in what you do with the legacy of your forefathers, if you have any great say in what you do, but more likely you can be thankful for what they left you with and how they raised you, although that may not be their achievement either but just a function of the stimuli they received themselves. In the end though, even if your brain is an automaton, it is still you and you are your brain. If there were a soul without any physical manifestation that can make completely free decisions, then there would be a sane person behind every mentally ill person or person with brain damage that would be able to determine the damage on a meta-level, like a soul trapped inside a broken machine. This seems impossible to prove however and I'm not aware of any indicators that this may be the case. For all intents and purposes, a decision is the result of the working of the neural network we call our brain. Psychiatrics and others work with the repeatable and predictable patterns that most of these machines show in order to fix them if they have adopted thought patterns that are detrimental to the individual or society.

Pride is a mechanism of this machine that ultimately deludes the machine into thinking that it has reached some sort of superiority over the other machines of its kind, or at least, superiority over a subset. Therefore the fact that I blame Britain for this or that should in no way affect your thankfulness for the improvements your forefathers left you, it can only affect your sense of pride and therefore your feeling of superiority if you delude yourself into thinking, even if subconsciously, that you are somehow superior to e.g. me now because of the things your forefathers did or did not do and the things my forefathers did or did not do.
To me however, the things your forefathers did or did not do do not change my idea of overall equality between the two of us today. If you become a banker or lawyer for HSBC tomorrow, that may change however.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This post is a result of ongoing brain processes and was written without further refinement or self-review. If you find any fault in the logic of this post, please help my brain rewire and prevent such faulty behavior in the future by pointing out the fault. Thank you.

The idea of the human automaton is a concept that I have heard several times in the last few years and it is a concept that causes both rage and despair in me. Despair because I find it a most horrible idea that would drive me to suicide if I bought into it completely, and it is at a level of complexity that I cannot refute with confidence. It causes Rage because I know that if and when it becomes mainstream there will be a influx of little shits who will see that idea as permission to ignore thier already weak conscience and cause misery because they now believe they have no real responsibility for thier actions.

Correction: further influx of little shits.

My rejection of it shaky in reason and mainly out of emotion, however even though I reject this I cannot deny that the world we live in has it's effects in how we think. Thus came the comment that inspired this; it is basic alternate universe theory, ignoring the unlikelyness of your parents, and thier parents before them, meeting and concieving in the exact same way to produce you without the industrial revolution pushing them together in cities; you would most likely be tending a field or learning a craft in some small german kingdom. You likely wouldnt be able to read, unless you have some aristocratic blood you have yet to share and It would be impossible for you to have the level of proficiency you exhibit now in economic, politic and philisophic fields.

It is the point where the word's influence ends and yours begins that is the question that overhangs the issue, you in that world may make similar decisions in his life, giving to the poor or tolerating a sibiling's antics (insert your actual life here) but he would not be you because he did not grow up in the surroundings of a united industrial Germany, he wouldnt bristle as you do if I called him a nazi or feel a glow if I compared him to Bismark, because neither would have been anywher near as prevelant in his understanding of the world(if they existed at all) if humanity never progressed from the semi feudalism of the 18th century. I choose to believe that the instinctual thought and past experience (experience observed not learnt through academia) is down to you surroundings but you who chooses what actions you take in response to those thoughts, the choice betwen punching or ignoring an offending person is what makes the soul.

As for pride, a lot of my reactions are probably irrational, in the vein of a university rivalry. You might have only joined Oxford yesterday and you might not believe yourself better than camebridge students but when your institute is accused of nazi sympathies by a cambridge student because in the 1930's oxford might have included some nazis, (that Cambridge most likely did as well) rational thought isn't going stop you being hurt by it because through even the slightest association with the college's past you identify insults to the whole as an insult to you.

I like to believe I am not dumb enough to think being a part of what I see as the best whole makes me instantly better than the parts of other wholes. The hope is that through being the end product of the assumed best institute we call the british nation (harder and harder to assume these days, damn germany making the rest of us actually work for our laurels) I have been given an advantage over the others but I prefer to think it is what you do with that advantage that proves superiority between individuals. Sad to say, haven't been using my advantage to the fullest, yet. I'm still going to get defensive when the source of that advantage is degraded, rightly or no.

Then Rory_20_UK comes along and not only kicks the idea that the superior institution has survived into the present to the curb, he also destroyed the defense mechanism of assuming jealosy of the detractor. A wake up call that kicked me into an existential panic and is still making me rethink a lot of things.

OK.

Everything you write sounds like me at 16, before I knew any better.

Happy?

Thinking I am smarter than I really am? Yes I expect that I am somewhere in that phase, but you?

I used to think of you as a role model, so smart and coherent with a touch of wisdom that was seemingly undeniable. You have your moments. But that chip on your shoulder, that knee jerk reacton to retaliate to a percieved slight against you or your national identity even while the insulter has withdrawn his comments, well, if I remind you of your 16 year old self then in this case you most certainly have not learnt better in the years hence.

Ugh. Even I get sick of my fellow britons at times, good people, quite a few who are smarter than they look, but so many of us have the cultural sensitivity (and eysesight apparantly) of a dump truck.

[Husar]

The idea of the human automaton is a concept that I have heard several times in the last few years and it is a concept that causes both rage and despair in me. Despair because I find it a most horrible idea that would drive me to suicide if I bought into it completely, and it is at a level of complexity that I cannot refute with confidence. It causes Rage because I know that if and when it becomes mainstream there will be a influx of little shits who will see that idea as permission to ignore thier already weak conscience and cause misery because they now believe they have no real responsibility for thier actions.

Correction: further influx of little shits.

But nothing would change, responsibility would still exist because we still wouldn't want troublemakers to roam around freely. Even today responsibility of individuals only exists either in theory or if the rest of society actually holds people responsible through force. And none of that would change. If you hit me in the face, society will lock you up, whether you made a free decision or whether your brain was wired that way. What might change could be the ideas and efforts to reprogram the brains of troublemakers in order to rewire them into society-compliant individuals. I'm sure you like that idea.

It is the point where the word's influence ends and yours begins that is the question that overhangs the issue, you in that world may make similar decisions in his life, giving to the poor or tolerating a sibiling's antics (insert your actual life here) but he would not be you because he did not grow up in the surroundings of a united industrial Germany, he wouldnt bristle as you do if I called him a nazi or feel a glow if I compared him to Bismark, because neither would have been anywher near as prevelant in his understanding of the world(if they existed at all) if humanity never progressed from the semi feudalism of the 18th century.
[...]
I choose to believe that the instinctual thought and past experience (experience observed not learnt through academia) is down to you surroundings but you who chooses what actions you take in response to those thoughts, the choice betwen punching or ignoring an offending person is what makes the soul.

But if there is a soul that is me, then even the Feudal Husar with my soul would be me, even though his body and mind may be different, he would be me, and there would be no alternative to prove otherwise. It's only when you take away the soul that a different development of body and mind would lead to a different me, because the mind is what basically makes me me then.
As for what you choose to believe, the way you phrase your post, it is not a choice in any way, more like a reaction you have for fear of the alternative. In other words, input -> existing wiring -> output. Fear would even be one of the most basic animalistic reactions where it is pretty much scientifically proven that that part of the brain where fear-induced decisions are made can hardly be said to make any logical decisions based on throrough deliberation. It's like saying the rabbit chose to run away from the wolf. You'd hardly take that as the prime example of free choice.

Oh and that part about me bristling is a lie, not sure where you got that from. I used to get angry when people called me gay, but nowadays I'm okay with both for the most part since what other people call me does not change who I am.

As for pride, a lot of my reactions are probably irrational, in the vein of a university rivalry. You might have only joined Oxford yesterday and you might not believe yourself better than camebridge students but when your institute is accused of nazi sympathies by a cambridge student because in the 1930's oxford might have included some nazis, (that Cambridge most likely did as well) rational thought isn't going stop you being hurt by it because through even the slightest association with the college's past you identify insults to the whole as an insult to you.

No, why? My current university is not very prominent, but I take neither pride nor shame from that and would rather rate it by the things I am taught. If I learn something useful and logical, then that's great, certainly better than basically buying your degree in some prestigious institution that gives grades based on how much money your daddy paid for the library.
A lot of the other things people learn at successful universities are about how to manipulate others into thinking you're great because that is what you mostly learned at your university.
And nazi insults are just a last resort that usually comes up when they have no actual argument anyway.

I like to believe I am not dumb enough to think being a part of what I see as the best whole makes me instantly better than the parts of other wholes. The hope is that through being the end product of the assumed best institute we call the british nation (harder and harder to assume these days, damn germany making the rest of us actually work for our laurels) I have been given an advantage over the others but I prefer to think it is what you do with that advantage that proves superiority between individuals. Sad to say, haven't been using my advantage to the fullest, yet. I'm still going to get defensive when the source of that advantage is degraded, rightly or no.

But what does that mean? Does it mean that you can rightfully feel superior to the Africans whose lives you ruined as a successful investment banker by gaining food subsidies that let your clients undermine the profit of local African farmers?
Is that making the best out of the advantage you were given? Or is it dismantling the superiority of your own nation over others in order to allow others to rise and have a better life as well? Or something in between?

Then Rory_20_UK comes along and not only kicks the idea that the superior institution has survived into the present to the curb, he also destroyed the defense mechanism of assuming jealosy of the detractor. A wake up call that kicked me into an existential panic and is still making me rethink a lot of things.

As I said before, panic and fear are bad advisors for rational thought because they completely circumvent it.

[Greyblades]

You mean I'm not already a proud, stubborn asshole?

But nothing would change, responsibility would still exist because we still wouldn't want troublemakers to roam around freely. Even today responsibility of individuals only exists either in theory or if the rest of society actually holds people responsible through force. And none of that would change. If you hit me in the face, society will lock you up, whether you made a free decision or whether your brain was wired that way. What might change could be the ideas and efforts to reprogram the brains of troublemakers in order to rewire them into society-compliant individuals. I'm sure you like that idea.

As politics have shown us time and again there are plenty of ways for the budding psychopath to cause mysery to his fellow man without incurring a corrective response from society. The way I see it the entire concept is nhilistic, "the soul is the deulsion of the brain, nothing really matters" which would be fine if it couldnt easily turn into: "so lets get rich off the misery of others".

Each benefit you predict coming from I see as easily coming without it, boiled down it looks like yet another hollow, yet pervasive, justification for the selfish to rationalise being selfish. I loath everything about it and yet I cant dismiss it completely because I don't have the confidence in my own capacity to disprove it.

But if there is a soul that is me, then even the Feudal Husar with my soul would be me, even though his body and mind may be different, he would be me, and there would be no alternative to prove otherwise. It's only when you take away the soul that a different development of body and mind would lead to a different me, because the mind is what basically makes me me then.

I fear I am getting to the limits of ability to remember the twists and turns this conversation have taken over the last week, one more post and I might end up forgetting how we ended up talking about alternate universes.

The soul being a point of contention that 2000 years have yet to solve, lets forget the certainty of him being you and instead look at him as a potential doppleganger. This man of his era is a sexist, racist, homophobic bigot, he has not been touched by the aftermath of two world wars and thus is ignorant to the potential harm his views could cause his fellow man.

Less philisophical: he lives in dirt and defecates into his main source of drinking water, his family has likely lost most of it's children at birth and by his 20th birthday his bilogical mother likely died in childbirth.

If I remember correctly this started out as a wish that the industrial revolution never happened, so you, the 21st century man with the consequences of predjudice fully etched on your psyche and a penchant for hygene utterly alien to this man, do you A) want this man to be considered you and B) do you really believe you would want to trade places with him?

I might be remembering it wrong, and instead of a wish for the industrial revolution to never have happened you merely wish that someone else achieved industrialisation first, in which case I wonder what I was thinking when I replied to it.

Oh and that part about me bristling is a lie, not sure where you got that from. I used to get angry when people called me gay, but nowadays I'm okay with both for the most part since what other people call me does not change who I am.

No, why? My current university is not very prominent, but I take neither pride nor shame from that and would rather rate it by the things I am taught. If I learn something useful and logical, then that's great, certainly better than basically buying your degree in some prestigious institution that gives grades based on how much money your daddy paid for the library.
A lot of the other things people learn at successful universities are about how to manipulate others into thinking you're great because that is what you mostly learned at your university.

Everything good germany did and everything it has done since cannot be counted as beneficial because between 1936 and 1945 men who you do not know and are only marginally related to committed atrocities that had been done many times in history by many people including the ones now condemning you. Anything any german ever did or will do deserves to be dismissed with a callous wave towards a 9 year period. Why you and not everyone else who comitted atrocities? Because you are german and you are monsters.

The twinge of guilt and shame I felt while writing that blatantly wrong paragraph is likely miniscule to the amount of rage and indignation that you felt and that anyone would feel if I had replaced German with British/American/French/Dutch/Ukranian/Norwegian/Turkish/whatever group the reader considers him/herself. In my understanding of the world there is no human alive or dead who would not feel anything when thier nation, state, county, villiage or tribe is insulted. It might be dulled through repetition, ignored through logic or brushed off, and being able to resist showing it affected you and not retaliating is be something to congratulate. To claim you felt nothing at any level however is frankly impossible for me to comprehend, especially because in the 6 years I have observed your veneer of unflappability crumble on occasion.

And nazi insults are just a last resort that usually comes up when they have no actual argument anyway.

That's because it's overused, it's easy to ignore, though when there is a element of truth even that overused insult can sting, and the embarrassing prevelance of nazi sympathies in 1930's britain might actually hit that insecurity in an oxfordian.

As for what you choose to believe, the way you phrase your post, it is not a choice in any way, more like a reaction you have for fear of the alternative. In other words, input -> existing wiring -> output. Fear would even be one of the most basic animalistic reactions where it is pretty much scientifically proven that that part of the brain where fear-induced decisions are made can hardly be said to make any logical decisions based on throrough deliberation. It's like saying the rabbit chose to run away from the wolf. You'd hardly take that as the prime example of free choice.

But what does that mean? Does it mean that you can rightfully feel superior to the Africans whose lives you ruined as a successful investment banker by gaining food subsidies that let your clients undermine the profit of local African farmers?
Is that making the best out of the advantage you were given? Or is it dismantling the superiority of your own nation over others in order to allow others to rise and have a better life as well? Or something in between?

As I said before, panic and fear are bad advisors for rational thought because they completely circumvent it.

As you might have noticed my last post was half reply half introspection; the concept of pride in the thing that raised me being one of the things I was rethinking. I mean it's obviously founded in emotion, but that doesnt exactly detract from it's prelevance. I feel, like fear, it should be controled but to ignore it completely would be detrimental.
I'll get back to you, but dont expect me to shed it completely.

[Greyblades]

Getting back on topic, I dont think we've covered Netanyahu's most recent antic yet.

http://www.politicususa.com/2015/02/...hu-speech.html

[Hooahguy]

The whole thing makes me utterly disgusted. Just deny Bibi entry, charge Boehner under the Logan Act and be done with this fiasco.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Thinking I am smarter than I really am? Yes I expect that I am somewhere in that phase, but you?

I used to think of you as a role model, so smart and coherent with a touch of wisdom that was seemingly undeniable. You have your moments. But that chip on your shoulder, that knee jerk reacton to retaliate to a percieved slight against you or your national identity even while the insulter has withdrawn his comments, well, if I remind you of your 16 year old self then in this case you most certainly have not learnt better in the years hence.

Ugh. Even I get sick of my fellow britons at times, good people, quite a few who are smarter than they look, but so many of us have the cultural sensitivity (and eysesight apparantly) of a dump truck.

ACIN's post was full of historical inaccuracies which I rebutted - with my tongue half in my cheek - and Seamus finished the loop but pointing out that my first point was somewhat fallacious.

I read ACIN's post and responded, I didn't see the later post until after anyway, you're being childish by making a big thing out of it. If I thought ACIN was being an arsehole I would have said so.

You're now being a Premadona AND and Arsehole, quite an achievement.

Honestly, if you ever saw me as a role model you're a terrible judge of character because I'm obviously a high functioning socio-path who's also highly moral and therefore suffers from crippling self-loathing.

[Kadagar_AV]

OK.

Everything you write sounds like me at 16, before I knew any better.

Happy?

Everything and anything else aside, this is for me the best PVC post of the decade...

I love him with gloves on... I effin LOVE him with gloves off

[a completely inoffensive name]

Everyone first hates the world they are presented with. And they become angry. Then, after some time, they realize the intractable nature of the way things are. And they become despondent. Then, after even more time, they begin to see the good in what they initially dismissed and choose to identify themselves in the institutions they hated. And they become proud. Then, with a lot more time, they see society pass them by and finally understand the fragility of things and the malleability of institutions over time. And they become scared. Then, with a little more time, they die. And they become happy for once.

Save yourself from this morbid trip Greyblades and just skip step 1 and 2 and become proud, stubborn assholes like the rest of us, or be apathetic like the majority of society.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Everything and anything else aside, this is for me the best PVC post of the decade...

I love him with gloves on... I effin LOVE him with gloves off

Right back at you buddy, but if you sleep with my sister I will travel to Sweden where I will commission a traditional blacksmith to forge me an +Ulfber+t blade, and then I will use it to kill you.

After all, if you're going to gaol you might as well field test an historical weapon of unmatched awesomeness.

[Kadagar_AV]

Right back at you buddy, but if you sleep with my sister I will travel to Sweden where I will commission a traditional blacksmith to forge me an +Ulfber+t blade, and then I will use it to kill you.

After all, if you're going to gaol you might as well field test an historical weapon of unmatched awesomeness.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Kad, you wouldn't survive the attempt, Em, would kill you.