Faction Slot

[Moros]

Judeans, finally, if Jerusalem was actually represented in EBII. But you'd think early Judaism would make a good culture, and I can't believe they weren't important enough in the time period.

Well our Mod's starting point predates an independent Jewish political entity by about 160 years and predates judaism by more than 300 years.
Also they would indeed control about one province of our map during about one third of our time frame. But there are 199 provinces on our map and a lot of those provinces are based on political or tribal entities that controlled them for a certain period. Hence I don't think they held such an important place.

[Gneisenau]

Considering that the game is not compllete, and some faction are unconpleted, like the romans ( historically the most impotant faction) wich dont have any late unit ready, i think it's stupid talk about jewish faction!

[QuintusSertorius]

Considering that the game is not compllete, and some faction are unconpleted, like the romans ( historically the most impotant faction) wich dont have any late unit ready, i think it's stupid talk about jewish faction!

I think the two open faction slots are a lot more important than the Augustan reforms for the Romans.

[Moros]

the Augustan reforms for the Romans.

Not sure whether they'll make it, but if they do that will not likely be any time too soon. We have quite a shortage of modellers and skinners.
Those we have are putting some fine work together though.

[Gneisenau]

I think the two open faction slots are a lot more important than the Augustan reforms for the Romans.

i think it's better for gamer, like for the developers, to have 2 faction less, but the game complete, especially if the new faction are historically insignificant, like the jewish... if you move the starting date to 1948 AC, and if with the m2tw engine it's possible make a "smart missle" unit, we can talk about it...

about the romans, in EB they have 35 units, only with polyb hastati (like eb2), they are 12, (1/3), not good..
i'm not a spqr fan but i think, (specially if a game want to be historically accurate) this is a lot more important than a people whose most important act of war was hiding in an impregnable fortress, which was promptly destroyed, and certainly not by camillian troops

[Mithridates VI Eupator]

If you move the starting date to 1948 BC, and if with the m2tw engine it's possible make a "smart missle" unit, we can talk about it...

Yes, for smart missiles launched from chariots were the most efficient weapon known to the Hettites.

[Gneisenau]

Yes, for smart missiles launched from chariots were the most efficient weapon known to the Hettites.

thank you genius!




for quintus:

i don't remmeber wich 3d is, but says that the roman have only camilian unit, except the POLYB hastati.. if in this beta there is the polyb and the marian reform, this is a great news for me!

kull says:

For me personally something is an alpha when it's not even playable...just a mess. A beta is full of bugs and likely to crash at any time. So where is EB2 in all this? We'll have 200 units out of a planned 500, so on that basis we're only 40% done. On the other hand the game hasn't crashed in MONTHS. So what is it? From my perspective, it's incomplete. And it will remain so for years to come, in all likelihood.

i don't think the 60% wich kull intend are the 2 faction slot empty

do not get me wrong, I'd be happy to have the other two factions, but not if this happens at the expense of the existing factions

[QuintusSertorius]

for quintus:

i don't remmeber wich 3d is, but says that the roman have only camilian unit, except the POLYB hastati.. if in this beta there is the polyb and the marian reform, this is a great news for me!

Even the Marian reform is not that essential for the first release. Realistically the only one most people are going to see is the Polybian reform, possibly as early as 242BC if the triggers are the same. The number of people who actually see it is probably quite small, especially if there are going to be a lot of fixes.

kull says:

i don't think the 60% wich kull intend are the 2 faction slot empty

do not get me wrong, I'd be happy to have the other two factions, but not if this happens at the expense of the existing factions

Kull's talking purely about the unit roster, not the entire game. He's using it as a yardstick, but that doesn't mean the game is only 40% done just because there are only 40% of the available unit slots filled. What they have said is that there was much more focus on regional and mercenary troops that are available to everyone, rather than filling out the unique, faction-specific slots.

I'd rather have all the factions in than existing ones getting more time and attention. Especially if that's frankly unnecessary things like the Augustan Reform. I'd rather have the full scope of the game than some polish on a feature we'll likely never see in the course of regular play. I never saw a Marian reform in any of my EB games (not even when I played the Romans) never mind the Augustan reforms.

[QuintusSertorius]

i think it's better for gamer, like for the developers, to have 2 faction less, but the game complete, especially if the new faction are historically insignificant, like the jewish... if you move the starting date to 1948 AC, and if with the m2tw engine it's possible make a "smart missle" unit, we can talk about it...

Having all faction slots filled is more complete than one specific faction which already has two reforms having a pointless third that most people will never see anyway.

There is absolutely no question of the two unfilled slots being used for a historically insignificant faction, you're conflating two completely different points here. You'll note I said there is no case for a Jewish faction, not unless the mod were set 150 years later, which it isn't.

about the romans, in EB they have 35 units, only with polyb hastati (like eb2), they are 12, (1/3), not good..
i'm not a spqr fan but i think, (specially if a game want to be historically accurate) this is a lot more important than a people whose most important act of war was hiding in an impregnable fortress, which was promptly destroyed, and certainly not by camillian troops

They still have access to all the regional and mercenary units, which is plenty of variety. Especially since this is the first release, not the final product.

Once again, they already have the Polybian and Marian reforms in this beta, so your point is completely irrelevant. What's missing is the (basically pointless) Augustan reform.

And again, you seem to have me confused with someone in favour of a Jewish faction, which I'm not. I said the two slots need to be filled, which is a higher priority than the Augustan reform. I didn't say one of those slots should be a Jewish faction.

[Mouthwash1]

Well our Mod's starting point predates an independent Jewish political entity by about 160 years and predates judaism by more than 300 years.

Whatever you call it, shouldn't it at least be recognized as a culture? It would be at least realistic to have to manage or assimilate them.

[joshmahurin]

They are mentioned but they are one of several peoples in that region and are already probably represented by the in game cultural groups. I'm not sure if they would still be considered arid nomads at this point in time, likely eastern imperial. Point is they are just one of a ridiculously large number of peoples and don't merit much, if any, special attention during this time period. This is just my opinion anyway.

[Moros]

Whatever you call it, shouldn't it at least be recognized as a culture? It would be at least realistic to have to manage or assimilate them.

We really can't be going anymore into detail as we already do. We already have set ourselves the goal of writing extensive 198 province descriptions (not all are finished though), and of course the judeans get mentioned in the province they were part of. What more should we do? They were a peaceful and one of many ordinary ethnicities the Hellenes ruled. Sure they would have a regional impact on politics 160 years later and a large cultural impact hundreds of years later, but that isn't very relevant to the period we are depicting.

What aspect or trait of the jewish ethnicity in first half of our period should have such an influence on the political world it needs to be represented somehow? And why should we focus on the possible peculiarities of this ethnicity when there are hundreds on our game map who all have their peculiarities, which we obviously can't include.

[Goth47]

Personally I have always been more interested in having more Germanic factions in EB like the Chatti or the Cimbri and making them hordable to create a more dynamic hording effect in Germania. Years ago I created a mod for BI and created just such an effect using large hordes. The effect that it created was that when a Germanic faction horded they destroyed surrounding settled Germanic factions who then also horded creating a domino effect that every now and then seriously threatened the borders of settled nations . It made conquering Germania a very dangerous proposition as the result was like lighting a powder keg.
Just an Idea I thought I would pass on
Goth

[Moros]

Personally I have always been more interested in having more Germanic factions in EB like the Chatti or the Cimbri and making them hordable to create a more dynamic hording effect in Germania. Years ago I created a mod for BI and created just such an effect using large hordes. The effect that it created was that when a Germanic faction horded they destroyed surrounding settled Germanic factions who then also horded creating a domino effect that every now and then seriously threatened the borders of settled nations . It made conquering Germania a very dangerous proposition as the result was like lighting a powder keg.
Just an Idea I thought I would pass on
Goth

Hi Goth, good to see you! Hope all is well. I actually think that's quite a neat idea. I can't remember to what extent the Sweboz en Lugii have the ability to hoard at this point though. Either way I doubt both factions will find their way to that area. Even one will be difficult to land. Especially as our germanic historians have gone a bit more quiet lately.

[Goth47]

Hi Goth, good to see you! Hope all is well. I actually think that's quite a neat idea. I can't remember to what extent the Sweboz en Lugii have the ability to hoard at this point though. Either way I doubt both factions will find their way to that area. Even one will be difficult to land. Especially as our germanic historians have gone a bit more quiet lately.

I am well my friend and thank you for asking and I hope you are too, I imagine you are very busy too with the upcoming release. I am currently very busy with many projects but when I get the beta I will experiment with the idea i proposed and send you the results. If the response from the team is good I will work on it further.
Stay well buddy and dont work too hard
Goth

[V.T. Marvin]

Just to clarify on Roman reforms in the first release - we have the Polybian reforms scripted and some Polybian units fully implemented (the rest are Camillan units with slightly better stats as placeholders). We certainly won't have neither Marian nor Augustan reforms - neither as an event nor as units.

Regarding completeness - there is indeed far more to the game than "just" units and factions - I would hesitate to call ANY of our current factions "finished" because we plan to include special events, traits, ancillaries, etc. to spice up the gameplay even for factions that we have already and whose roster of units could be considered finished. And I am sure that lots of ideas will pop-up once the mod is out that we have not considered before so it is pointless to estimate if the mod is complete from 40% or any other percentage. We still lack the proper yardstick of the "final" status when we as Team as well as all sub-modders in the community call it a day and move on. Let's just stick with the awareness that what will come out in the next few days/weeks is supposed to be a fun-to-play game, but nobody in the Team presumes to consider it a finished product.

Finally regarding the two factions slots that remain open - there were several ideas proposed, but about a year or so ago the Team decided to stop any discussion on the subject and focus on getting what we have into a playable state. We still aim to have the other two factions included. So the answer to the OP is yes, we will use these slots. Which factions will get included eventually - nobody knows today. First we need to push the game into first release and then fix all the outstanding bugs and the most obvious gaps in that and then, and ONLY THEN, we will re-open the discussion on the last two factions.

That said, it is already apparent that Judeans will NOT fulfill the criteria for inclusion as a playable faction. Thracians would be certainly interesting, but my (and take this as a personal opinion) guess would be that their lack of political unity prevents them from being included either. They would be better represented by regionally recruitable set of units IMO. In the discussions that were being conducted in the past within the Team, two factions in Western Europe, a faction in Western Iran and a faction in the Far East were the hottest candidates. But lot of time has passed since then so the final result can be very much different. A concise and well argument-ed input from the community thus still can carry the day. On this forum there at least two such examples which I personally find quite sound - for Syracusae and for Belage, but others were proposed too...

[Mouthwash1]

That said, it is already apparent that Judeans will NOT fulfill the criteria for inclusion as a playable faction. Thracians would be certainly interesting, but my (and take this as a personal opinion) guess would be that their lack of political unity prevents them from being included either. They would be better represented by regionally recruitable set of units IMO. In the discussions that were being conducted in the past within the Team, two factions in Western Europe, a faction in Western Iran and a faction in the Far East were the hottest candidates. But lot of time has passed since then so the final result can be very much different. A concise and well argument-ed input from the community thus still can carry the day. On this forum there at least two such examples which I personally find quite sound - for Syracusae and for Belage, but others were proposed too...

Well, Rome needs some competition down south that isn't Carthaginian, and it makes historical sense for Sicily.

(You can see I'm not very cut out for this.)

[LusitanianWolf]

Well, Rome needs some competition down south that isn't Carthaginian, and it makes historical sense for Sicily.

(You can see I'm not very cut out for this.)

I really wouldnt like to see Syracuse as a faction because I hope to see AI's Rome and Carthage having bloody Punic wars and in a large percentage of games one of them becoming the dominant western mediterranian power (specially since I will play a lot with other western factions that historically had major wars with at least one of them).

Another faction in Sicilly would act as a buffer (unless you make it extremelly weak and thus irrelevant) and one of my largest disapointments in EB1 was SPQR AI allways going full "Holy Roman Empire" instead of having a semi historical expantion.