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I am certainly not an a blunt anti-American, but I am sick of the way the American government continues to calling Germany "a close friend and ally" while massively violating German citizens' rights and spying on the German government.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-979738.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/10/wo...tml?ref=europe
From my point of view, this just displays massive arrogance, those in charge are either too ignorant to see the enormous damage resulting from such cold war-like actions or simply don't care.
Imagine one of your friends read your SMS and recorded your phone calls; what would be your reaction if you found out?
Merkel's reaction: Merely saying "We are not amused."
I am fed up with a government, which displays a vassal-like attitude. In my opinion, it is high time to treat American intelligence just how we treat Russian or Chinese intelligence: as enemies. For instance, we should close down all of the NSA's basis in Germany. Apparently our counter-espionage is either highly incapable and/or not willing to do its job, which is protecting its citizens and government against foreign intelligence. It is high time for Europe to sign its own Declaration of Indepence and become more independent in security issues.
Meanwhile, America civil authorities should do everything to regain control over a paranoid security apparatus gone rogue. I heard the US are struggling with government debt, maybe they should just stop spending billions on alienating their allies. Anti-americanism is definitely on the rise here and if the US continue just ignoring the "Euroweenies" complaints, those "Euroweenies" do not see any point in keeping this parthership.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-979738.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/10/wo...tml?ref=europe
From my point of view, this just displays massive arrogance, those in charge are either too ignorant to see the enormous damage resulting from such cold war-like actions or simply don't care.
Imagine one of your friends read your SMS and recorded your phone calls; what would be your reaction if you found out?
Merkel's reaction: Merely saying "We are not amused."
I am fed up with a government, which displays a vassal-like attitude. In my opinion, it is high time to treat American intelligence just how we treat Russian or Chinese intelligence: as enemies. For instance, we should close down all of the NSA's basis in Germany. Apparently our counter-espionage is either highly incapable and/or not willing to do its job, which is protecting its citizens and government against foreign intelligence. It is high time for Europe to sign its own Declaration of Indepence and become more independent in security issues.
Meanwhile, America civil authorities should do everything to regain control over a paranoid security apparatus gone rogue. I heard the US are struggling with government debt, maybe they should just stop spending billions on alienating their allies. Anti-americanism is definitely on the rise here and if the US continue just ignoring the "Euroweenies" complaints, those "Euroweenies" do not see any point in keeping this parthership.
This is why I want a stronger EU. Right now as it is, we are weak and divided. If Europe gets more united, our government may be able to stand up to the big bullies in town instead of being like "Something happened, but let's just not upset the big boss". Sure, we may have to give up some rights, but in my opinion, it is worth it.
Originally Posted by rickinator9:
This is why I want a stronger EU. Right now as it is, we are weak and divided. If Europe gets more united, our government may be able to stand up to the big bullies in town instead of being like "Something happened, but let's just not upset the big boss". Sure, we may have to give up some rights, but in my opinion, it is worth it.
This is a top lel post. If you think it's bad being a "vassal state" try living here. Nancy Pelosi is more eager to find out what porn I like, than solving the problem that California only has 12-18 months of water left before we all ******* die. My apologies to Gelatinous Cube my people need your water so we can satisfy our obnoxious HOA's that mandate crisp, green lawns in the middle of the desert that is Southern California.This is why I want a stronger EU. Right now as it is, we are weak and divided. If Europe gets more united, our government may be able to stand up to the big bullies in town instead of being like "Something happened, but let's just not upset the big boss". Sure, we may have to give up some rights, but in my opinion, it is worth it.
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube:
Shoot we need our water! Got growing cities in places that actually support life, y'know...
You drink all of Colorado's water already?
Hell by the time we get our share of the Colorado its more sludge than water.Shoot we need our water! Got growing cities in places that actually support life, y'know...
You drink all of Colorado's water already?Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube:
You'd think California would have found a way to turn the sea into drinkable water in a reasonable way, by now. What with the dire need for other peoples' valuable drinking water, and the fact that california's GDP is comparable to Russia's, you'd think they'd be working on this one a bit more urgently.
All they need is some sunshine or nuclear power and it would be easy...You'd think California would have found a way to turn the sea into drinkable water in a reasonable way, by now. What with the dire need for other peoples' valuable drinking water, and the fact that california's GDP is comparable to Russia's, you'd think they'd be working on this one a bit more urgently.
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube:
You'd think California would have found a way to turn the sea into drinkable water in a reasonable way, by now. What with the dire need for other peoples' valuable drinking water, and the fact that california's GDP is comparable to Russia's, you'd think they'd be working on this one a bit more urgently.
You would think. California is exceptionally unsustainable when it comes to water and the politicians don't care because the water is not from California. Desalination would require lots of power plants though since large scale desalination is very energy intensive. It won't happen until water becomes more scarce. But by then it will be too late to build the power plants in time and any power plants will be natural gas since California hates both coal and nuclear. They are literally holding California and the rest of the United States on a knife's edge since the vast majority of water usage goes to agriculture which feeds all of the US. Drive on the I5 through the central valley and every 10 miles is a sign asking for more water.You'd think California would have found a way to turn the sea into drinkable water in a reasonable way, by now. What with the dire need for other peoples' valuable drinking water, and the fact that california's GDP is comparable to Russia's, you'd think they'd be working on this one a bit more urgently.
"Hey Reginald, cancel the invasion plan, turns out all we need to do is wait for the colonies to run out of water."
Welcome to reality, where if you are puny lightweight who quivers in the corner with a decaying military infrastructure - you should prepare to be a subordinate. We would love for you guys to stand up for yourselves and counter anybody who encourages injustice, including the United States.
Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg:
Welcome to reality, where if you are puny lightweight who quivers in the corner with a decaying military infrastructure - you should prepare to be a subordinate. We would love for you guys to stand up for yourselves and counter anybody who encourages injustice, including the United States.
So you say Germany should, eh, invade someone over this to show how mighty a nation the proud Germans are? You see, unless you are actually using your military no matter how much conspicuous consumption you indulge in, it's all idle threats.Welcome to reality, where if you are puny lightweight who quivers in the corner with a decaying military infrastructure - you should prepare to be a subordinate. We would love for you guys to stand up for yourselves and counter anybody who encourages injustice, including the United States.
The USA probably knows that better than most.
Unless you want a tit for tat exchange in which the Germans start a massive campaign of industrial espionage to give the USA a dose of its own medicine I really do not see the point.
Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg:
Welcome to reality, where if you are puny lightweight who quivers in the corner with a decaying military infrastructure - you should prepare to be a subordinate. We would love for you guys to stand up for yourselves and counter anybody who encourages injustice, including the United States.
Problem with this idea is that the USA spends more money on military then everyone else combined.Welcome to reality, where if you are puny lightweight who quivers in the corner with a decaying military infrastructure - you should prepare to be a subordinate. We would love for you guys to stand up for yourselves and counter anybody who encourages injustice, including the United States.
Yet that doesn't stop its own intelligence agencies spying on its own citizens. Sure there is oversight in the form of secret courts whose requests don't get enforced and political committees who when publicly lied to get fixed by a special reform commission with a key member the person who lied to the commission being the individual who lied.
Having a large anything means nothing if you can't handle it properly...
Originally Posted by Papewaio:
Problem with this idea is that the USA spends more money on military then everyone else combined.
Yet that doesn't stop its own intelligence agencies spying on its own citizens. Sure there is oversight in the form of secret courts whose requests don't get enforced and political committees who when publicly lied to get fixed by a special reform commission with a key member the person who lied to the commission being the individual who lied.
Having a large anything means nothing if you can't handle it properly...
We need your help. We need our allies to counter the malevolent forces in our governments. We are not able to control our government. Help us and take responsibility. Aussies aren't particularly bad at this, so thank you.Problem with this idea is that the USA spends more money on military then everyone else combined.
Yet that doesn't stop its own intelligence agencies spying on its own citizens. Sure there is oversight in the form of secret courts whose requests don't get enforced and political committees who when publicly lied to get fixed by a special reform commission with a key member the person who lied to the commission being the individual who lied.
Having a large anything means nothing if you can't handle it properly...
Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg:
We need your help. We need our allies to counter the malevolent forces in our governments. We are not able to control our government. Help us and take responsibility. Aussies aren't particularly bad at this, so thank you.
I thought you have guns for this, what happened?We need your help. We need our allies to counter the malevolent forces in our governments. We are not able to control our government. Help us and take responsibility. Aussies aren't particularly bad at this, so thank you.
Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg:
We need your help. We need our allies to counter the malevolent forces in our governments. We are not able to control our government. Help us and take responsibility. Aussies aren't particularly bad at this, so thank you.
Mate Australia not only drinks the same Kool Aid we double down on it. For the US we will squeal like a pig man.We need your help. We need our allies to counter the malevolent forces in our governments. We are not able to control our government. Help us and take responsibility. Aussies aren't particularly bad at this, so thank you.
It's an issue with transparency (very hard with spy agencies), accountability (not so hard) and desire.
Originally Posted by GenosseGeneral:
I am fed up with a government, which displays a vassal-like attitude. In my opinion, it is high time to treat American intelligence just how we treat Russian or Chinese intelligence: as enemies.
Problem is, when you're a vassal state, you don't have much choice. I am fed up with a government, which displays a vassal-like attitude. In my opinion, it is high time to treat American intelligence just how we treat Russian or Chinese intelligence: as enemies.
On the good side, you save on the army and on intelligence and on foreign politics. Washington takes care of that, you just nod and keep the money. It's not all bad.
Originally Posted by GenosseGeneral:
I am certainly not an a blunt anti-American, but I am sick of the way the American government continues to calling Germany "a close friend and ally" while massively violating German citizens' rights and spying on the German government.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-979738.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/10/wo...tml?ref=europe
From my point of view, this just displays massive arrogance, those in charge are either too ignorant to see the enormous damage resulting from such cold war-like actions or simply don't care.
Imagine one of your friends read your SMS and recorded your phone calls; what would be your reaction if you found out?
Merkel's reaction: Merely saying "We are not amused."
I am fed up with a government, which displays a vassal-like attitude. In my opinion, it is high time to treat American intelligence just how we treat Russian or Chinese intelligence: as enemies. For instance, we should close down all of the NSA's basis in Germany. Apparently our counter-espionage is either highly incapable and/or not willing to do its job, which is protecting its citizens and government against foreign intelligence. It is high time for Europe to sign its own Declaration of Indepence and become more independent in security issues.
Meanwhile, America civil authorities should do everything to regain control over a paranoid security apparatus gone rogue. I heard the US are struggling with government debt, maybe they should just stop spending billions on alienating their allies. Anti-americanism is definitely on the rise here and if the US continue just ignoring the "Euroweenies" complaints, those "Euroweenies" do not see any point in keeping this parthership.
I am certainly not an a blunt anti-American, but I am sick of the way the American government continues to calling Germany "a close friend and ally" while massively violating German citizens' rights and spying on the German government.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-979738.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/10/wo...tml?ref=europe
From my point of view, this just displays massive arrogance, those in charge are either too ignorant to see the enormous damage resulting from such cold war-like actions or simply don't care.
Imagine one of your friends read your SMS and recorded your phone calls; what would be your reaction if you found out?
Merkel's reaction: Merely saying "We are not amused."
I am fed up with a government, which displays a vassal-like attitude. In my opinion, it is high time to treat American intelligence just how we treat Russian or Chinese intelligence: as enemies. For instance, we should close down all of the NSA's basis in Germany. Apparently our counter-espionage is either highly incapable and/or not willing to do its job, which is protecting its citizens and government against foreign intelligence. It is high time for Europe to sign its own Declaration of Indepence and become more independent in security issues.
Meanwhile, America civil authorities should do everything to regain control over a paranoid security apparatus gone rogue. I heard the US are struggling with government debt, maybe they should just stop spending billions on alienating their allies. Anti-americanism is definitely on the rise here and if the US continue just ignoring the "Euroweenies" complaints, those "Euroweenies" do not see any point in keeping this parthership.
I could not agree more!
first of all, countries don´t have friends, the concept doesn´t apply to that scale.
are they spying on an ally? I expect they are spying on everyone to be honest, maybe with not as much fervor as they spy on their enemies, but it is what it is.
if you don´t want to get spied on you up your defensive steps against it.
are they spying on an ally? I expect they are spying on everyone to be honest, maybe with not as much fervor as they spy on their enemies, but it is what it is.
if you don´t want to get spied on you up your defensive steps against it.
I like to think that someone in the NSA takes time to check up on me. Makes me feel important.
GG:
Germany is not a vassal state. The US has never had the knack of "putting the boot on someone's neck" properly so as to truly establish vassalage. Not saying we are morally beyond trying it, just that we have too much of a lingering morality to do it properly.
That said, the USA does tend, at least since the collapse of the CCCP if not before, to be haphazard and "high handed" with its allies in NATO and elsewhere. The absence of a coherent foreign policy since the conclusion of the cold war and the way our internal politics can whipsaw Congressional support and Executive attention often manifests itself in cavalier behavior towards those who we label our allies.
As to the spying....it is a little discussed fact that most friendly governments spy on one another as well as on their "enemies." Mossad has run operations in the USA for years. I would be surprised if German Intelligence services were not doing the same -- after all, figuring out what the current set of temp workers staffing the White House is up to behind the Press Releases might be of advantage, no? Intelligence services spy on everyone but themselves, and that usually includes spying on their own intelligence rivals down the strasse as well.
In other threads, I have asserted that it is my growing belief that we must bring NATO to a close. Allow the United States of Europe (Label it the EU or Grossdeustchland for all I care) to form --with or without the Brits at their discretion -- and let them chart their own course. The USA has a lot of work to do in the New World, melding our semi-English heritage with our quasi-Latino future.
Germany is not a vassal state. The US has never had the knack of "putting the boot on someone's neck" properly so as to truly establish vassalage. Not saying we are morally beyond trying it, just that we have too much of a lingering morality to do it properly.
That said, the USA does tend, at least since the collapse of the CCCP if not before, to be haphazard and "high handed" with its allies in NATO and elsewhere. The absence of a coherent foreign policy since the conclusion of the cold war and the way our internal politics can whipsaw Congressional support and Executive attention often manifests itself in cavalier behavior towards those who we label our allies.
As to the spying....it is a little discussed fact that most friendly governments spy on one another as well as on their "enemies." Mossad has run operations in the USA for years. I would be surprised if German Intelligence services were not doing the same -- after all, figuring out what the current set of temp workers staffing the White House is up to behind the Press Releases might be of advantage, no? Intelligence services spy on everyone but themselves, and that usually includes spying on their own intelligence rivals down the strasse as well.
In other threads, I have asserted that it is my growing belief that we must bring NATO to a close. Allow the United States of Europe (Label it the EU or Grossdeustchland for all I care) to form --with or without the Brits at their discretion -- and let them chart their own course. The USA has a lot of work to do in the New World, melding our semi-English heritage with our quasi-Latino future.
Originally Posted by GenosseGeneral:
I am certainly not an a blunt anti-American, but I am sick of the way the American government continues to calling Germany "a close friend and ally" while massively violating German citizens' rights and spying on the German government.
This isn't anything personal you know... Israel spies on us all the time. You know what we can do about it? Not a damn thing. So yeah, I understand your frustration, but your situation is hardly unique. Furthermore, it has nothing to do with "subservience" of your government.I am certainly not an a blunt anti-American, but I am sick of the way the American government continues to calling Germany "a close friend and ally" while massively violating German citizens' rights and spying on the German government.
Germany is also a wayward ally (possibly as a result of the US being a wayward ally). We (supposedly) put Canada, Australia, UK, Ireland "off limits" for spying. But France and Germany are "allies" rather than ALLIES. Some clinal observance of our alliances is appropriate. Revelations that we are spying on countries that seem to resent us, seem to control an economic competitor (the EU), and just 80 years ago tried to take over the world after ethnically cleansing it - isn't shocking.
Spying on every waking moment of civilian's lives is.
Spying on every waking moment of civilian's lives is.
We do, but as everyone says, "what will that really do?" Civilian held arms and allies with conventional forces are what won us the Revolution.
People around the world need to grow a backbone. We should start here, at home. A United States which grows its central government, restricts the freedom of its citizens, expands an opaque secret legal system; is an enemy of the free world. Don't treat that government like a friend. It is your most dangerous enemy.
A world that has no responsible actor to dissuade this country from its evil impulses is not a safe and free world. Americans are no safer because Europeans refuse to defend themselves.
A world that has no responsible actor to dissuade this country from its evil impulses is not a safe and free world. Americans are no safer because Europeans refuse to defend themselves.
Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg:
People around the world need to grow a backbone. We should start here, at home. A United States which grows its central government, restricts the freedom of its citizens, expands an opaque secret legal system; is an enemy of the free world. Don't treat that government like a friend. It is your most dangerous enemy.
The problem is when I say that it's anti-Americanism and I'm ignored or told that it's still much better than North Korea and I should shut my mouth.People around the world need to grow a backbone. We should start here, at home. A United States which grows its central government, restricts the freedom of its citizens, expands an opaque secret legal system; is an enemy of the free world. Don't treat that government like a friend. It is your most dangerous enemy.
Originally Posted by Husar:
The problem is when I say that it's anti-Americanism and I'm ignored or told that it's still much better than North Korea and I should shut my mouth.
No, I'm just telling you to arm yourselves and don't rely on the US for protection. It doesn't care about you and it is succumbing to ancient temptations of power. In fact, one day we may need your help removing the shackles.The problem is when I say that it's anti-Americanism and I'm ignored or told that it's still much better than North Korea and I should shut my mouth.
If I were in charge then I would definitely spy on my allies just like the US. And I suspect that Germany and, oh, just about everyone else, follows much the same principle.
Edit:
WHat do think embassies are for?
Edit:
WHat do think embassies are for?
I think it's time for the German people to rise..
I'll let myself out
I'll let myself out
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