Let's discuss India?l

[Fragony]

Another really horrible rape plus bonus murder. Sven year old girld raped and hanged. I know it is a big country but these things still happen a lot there and there is almost always cruelty involved. A friend explained how people think over about people who are not in the same tier. What are the untouchables? I didn't get that part.

[HoreTore]

'Untouchables' are Dalit, the lowest caste in India. As such, they are percieved to be the bottom rung of society, much like the Roma and Jews are in Europe. They face heavy discrimination, but since they make up around a quarter of a billion people, there is only so much you can discriminate.

Thanks in part to hefty government action, the Dalit actually have a higher rate of employment than the general population and occupy every level of society, including a president.

What's interesting, is that the biggest concentrations of Dalit are found in Sikh areas(Punjab, specifically). Sikhism explicitly rejects the caste system and forbids any discrimination based on caste(and much else). So, you'd think Punjab was an oasis for Dalits, right? Wrong.


Basically the caste system is an Indian version of the feudal system, with more emphasis on production than military. It's also the prime driver of Indian Maoist groups.

As for the rape, have some Fritzl.

[lars573]

Which was turned into it's modern rigid form by the British.

[Greyblades]

And maintained by indians long after independance. What's your point?

[rajpoot]

It's barbaric all these incidents of rape and murder. The good thing is at least they are being reported now.
Before Dec '12 incident in Delhi which kind of brought all these crimes into limelight and turned media attention towards them, most of these cases were just swept under the rug by incompetent local authorities.
Sadly even now after all the public attention these cases get, courts are not meting out harsh punishments to the perpetrators. The death sentence of the convicted involved in the Dec '12 case was put on stay by the Supreme Court. The 'juvenile' (17 years and 7 or 8 months old at the time of the crime. 4 months short of becoming a legal adult) accomplice in the same case who was also convicted is most probably already scot free. And he was supposed to be the most brutal of the lot.
Anyway the good thing about this case is that the pedophile who was responsible was lynched by the mob before the dilly dallying could begin in the courts. Good old fashioned street justice. Makes the heart glow.
Also JFR this case isn't related to caste system at all. Don't know where you're getting that from. The man who did it was a tantric, so if you want to bash something, bash outdated, superstitious, voodoo like practices. he probably thought killing the young girl would let him attain immortality or something. Nutjobs the lot of them.

[Greyblades]

Could we get a news link?

[rajpoot]

Of course

[Papewaio]

Justice isn't served by a lynch mob killing the first suspect(s).

Rape and murder are often done by someone that is known to the victim. It might have indeed been the tantric, it might have been someone else in the village, it might have even been someone who had a motive for revenge on the tantric and set him up.

[Fragony]

Justice isn't served by a lynch mob killing the first suspect(s).

The most reasonable and wise aproach of course. But I am neither so I don't have a problem with it, looktheotherway-territory. Won't participate but won't be calling anyone either.

[Papewaio]

I have no problem with a child rapist and murderer dying in such a manner.

But I hope that they got the right person. Consider that in India it was not unknown for a husband to burn his wife alive for not providing a good enough dowry and that woman's rights trail compared to the rest of the world. What are the odds that the father himself could have murdered his daughter to setup the tantric so he could get the land?

Not proable, but possible enough that the case should have gone through court.

[Fragony]

Maybe the odds don't really matter when considerating the problem. A young girl was sentenced to be raped as some sort of council. Nobody deserves that. Can I please absolutily detest that without being interested in their culture in any way.

It's sick and mean. I would never do such a thing.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Equal culture of peace.

[Greyblades]

Justice isn't served by a lynch mob killing the first suspect(s).

Rape and murder are often done by someone that is known to the victim. It might have indeed been the tantric, it might have been someone else in the village, it might have even been someone who had a motive for revenge on the tantric and set him up.

According to the article this guy had a history of sexually abusing young girls and had "his face covered with a gamcha, trying to flee in the pre-dawn darkness with his two associates." Whether all of that is true is another matter.

[HoreTore]

According to the article this guy had a history of sexually abusing young girls and had "his face covered with a gamcha, trying to flee in the pre-dawn darkness with his two associates." Whether all of that is true is another matter.

Yes, well. What ABB did was far worse and more certain than this guy, yet I would not want him lynched and dead...

[Greyblades]

Indeed, anything a lynch mob could have come up for him would have been too brief by half a millenia.

[Papewaio]

According to the article this guy had a history of sexually abusing young girls and had "his face covered with a gamcha, trying to flee in the pre-dawn darkness with his two associates." Whether all of that is true is another matter.

Lets assume that nothing is at face value and the dead don't have a voice.

Lets look at the quote of the father:
"They immediately suspected tantrik Ratan Das, who has a history of sexually abusing young girls, says the father's complaint."
Police
"The families of the rape victim and suspect own adjacent farmlands and have a long running feud. They had a fight over the land dispute very recently but police say the girl's father has not mentioned it in his complaint"

Strange that he doesn't mention a potential strong motive for the tantric. Possibly because that was his own motive. Police seem suspicious that it wasn't mentioned.

Now if you are in a long running feud over land with your neighbor would you hang his daughter outside your property and wait around for a mob to murder you? See that part doesn't make sense nor does the father skipping over his feud.


Wouldn't he said to the police "The tantric was always abusing us over the use of our land. His hatred lead him to do this despicable thing out of revenge" etc

Walks like a duck...

[rajpoot]

Now if you are in a long running feud over land with your neighbor would you hang his daughter outside your property and wait around for a mob to murder you? See that part doesn't make sense nor does the father skipping over his feud.

You are assuming here that the father valued the land more than his seven years old daughter and murdered her in cold blood just to get back at the tantric.
What is it that led you to this assumption?

[a completely inoffensive name]

Funny how a little education and wealth goes a long way towards turning over oppressive patriarchal societies.

[Beskar]

You are assuming here that the father valued the land more than his seven years old daughter and murdered her in cold blood just to get back at the tantric.
What is it that led you to this assumption?

Twisted world that we live in. Similar incidents have happened before and will happen around the world, some people really are that depraved. So it is a possibility.

Regardless of that, the village seems to be rather remote and not used to dealing with authorities, so it is a rather lawless in that sense. We may never know for sure the full-extent of what led to what. It could be that the Tantric was fleeing because he felt threatened and unsafe, which is perfectly understandable. If a neighbour who hated you suddenly found their daughter dead then suddenly shouting and screaming "It is that Rajpoot! He has always hated me, he did this to my precious daughter!" whilst an angry mob formed with torches and pitchforks, you may find yourself running away too.

[Fragony]

You are assuming here that the father valued the land more than his seven years old daughter and murdered her in cold blood just to get back at the tantric.
What is it that led you to this assumption?

If we are talking about the same case, should we, we are talking about the girl sentenced to be raped by the city (village) council as sme sort f twisted honour revenge. If it isn't, than it's a different case. But ffs, that still happened.

[rajpoot]

Fair enough, the world is twisted. And as Frag has mentioned we should consider the case of honour killings because that probably does give weightage to the theory that the girl was murdered by her family.
But what needs to be noted is that honour killings are carried out when a girl dishonours the family in some way. It's right there in the name. 99 times out of 100 the 'dishonour' is when she elopes/ marries without her family's permission.
The other case where girls are killed is when the parents don't want a girl child at all. That is usually done at birth or before birth. Not seven years later.
My point is that I have never heard of a parent killing their own child just for the sake of framing someone else. At least in India. I am sure I would've remembered had I heard such a twisted bit of news.
So, I really doubt there is any more to this case than meets the eye. I do believe the oft mentioned Occam's razor applies here.

[Sarmatian]

My point is that I have never heard of a parent killing their own child just for the sake of framing someone else. At least in India. I am sure I would've remembered had I heard such a twisted bit of news.
So, I really doubt there is any more to this case than meets the eye. I do believe the oft mentioned Occam's razor applies here.

Indeed. Killing your own child to spite the neighbours is a pretty absurd theory.

[Kadagar_AV]

My experience is that anything can happen in India...

I don't mean that negative, nor positive... I just mean that from what I have witnessed India is so huge and diverse that pretty much anything could happen.

When I read reports like this I always wait for better information before I start grabbing my torch and pitchfork...

[Fragony]

Fair enough, the world is twisted. And as Frag has mentioned we should consider the case of honour killings because that probably does give weightage to the theory that the girl was murdered by her family.
But what needs to be noted is that honour killings are carried out when a girl dishonours the family in some way. It's right there in the name. 99 times out of 100 the 'dishonour' is when she elopes/ marries without her family's permission.
The other case where girls are killed is when the parents don't want a girl child at all. That is usually done at birth or before birth. Not seven years later.
My point is that I have never heard of a parent killing their own child just for the sake of framing someone else. At least in India. I am sure I would've remembered had I heard such a twisted bit of news.
So, I really doubt there is any more to this case than meets the eye. I do believe the oft mentioned Occam's razor applies here.

Oxzam razor certainly applies, maybe your culture is just deeply flawed. First thing that comes to mind. Nobody has the right to use women as currency. Is it so hard to treat them as human beings, stuff like this really makes me angry. It seems to have more to do with the lowest of the lowest truly being fair game. If so, I have no words that could express my comptempt I have for your society. Vindalo-curry with a nan and a lassie aint't going to help despite me really liking that.

[rajpoot]

Oxzam razor certainly applies, maybe your culture is just deeply flawed. First thing that comes to mind. Nobody has the right to use women as currency. Is it so hard to treat them as human beings, stuff like this really makes me angry. It seems to have more to do with the lowest of the lowest truly being fair game. If so, I have no words that could express my comptempt I have for your society. Vindalo-curry with a nan and a lassie aint't going to help despite me really liking that.

You're being an ignorant hick if you think that is all there is to Indian culture....vindaloo, nan, lassi and mistreating women.
It isn't the culture that is inherently flawed. It's not even the religion. It's just the mentality of uneducated people who see a woman as something that can be owned.
And honestly that's not even a factor where honour killings are concerned. Sure rapes and honour killings are probably perpetrated by people who have similar mindsets. But the stuff you hear in the news every day about rape and honour killing, both are being happening due to different causes.
Honour killings and the stupid and derogatory punishments meted out by the khap panchayats are mainly because these people really believe that by curbing women's rights and keeping them under their thumbs they can control the society.
Anyway IMHO if you want a fair view of what a culture is like you need to see stuff beyond what makes you see red. Books by foreign Indian authors would be a good start. They are usually not stupid enough to spout patriotic crap and unbiased enough to paint the real picture.

[Fragony]

You're being an ignorant hick if you think that is all there is to Indian culture....vindaloo, nan, lassi and mistreating women.
It isn't the culture that is inherently flawed. It's not even the religion. It's just the mentality of uneducated people who see a woman as something that can be owned.
And honestly that's not even a factor where honour killings are concerned. Sure rapes and honour killings are probably perpetrated by people who have similar mindsets. But the stuff you hear in the news every day about rape and honour killing, both are being happening due to different causes.
Honour killings and the stupid and derogatory punishments meted out by the khap panchayats are mainly because these people really believe that by curbing women's rights and keeping them under their thumbs they can control the society.
Anyway IMHO if you want a fair view of what a culture is like you need to see stuff beyond what makes you see red. Books by foreign Indian authors would be a good start. They are usually not stupid enough to spout patriotic crap and unbiased enough to paint the real picture.

I got all cd's of Norah Jones, her father and her sister, and I can rap all menus in the average Indian restaurant. It just catches the eye. That says nothing about you, but it does happen a lot. Not trying to offend you but I just care more about women's rights than I care about your feelings.

[rajpoot]

I got all cd's of Norah Jones, her father and her sister, and I can rap all menus in the average Indian restaurant. It just catches the eye. That says nothing about you, but it does happen a lot. Not trying to offend you but I just care more about women's rights than I care about your feelings.

I get it. It's cool.
I will still suggest some reading if you want to broaden your sphere of knowledge beyond the food. I've never heard Norah Jones and Anoushka so I don't know anything about what you might get from them. Ravi Shankar was excellent though.

[Fragony]

I get it. It's cool.
I will still suggest some reading if you want to broaden your sphere of knowledge beyond the food. I've never heard Norah Jones and Anoushka so I don't know anything about what you might get from them. Ravi Shankar was excellent though.

Kidding me, she's his daughter, one of te best musicians alive https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t2kJ0gat3xE

[Papewaio]

You are assuming here that the father valued the land more than his seven years old daughter and murdered her in cold blood just to get back at the tantric.
What is it that led you to this assumption?

Because the amount of violence against women is pretty appalling:

" According to Indian National Crime Record Bureau, there were 1,948 convictions and 3,876 acquittals in dowry death cases in 2008.[" - Wikipedia

That is a lot of women murdered over money by their husbands.

[rajpoot]

There's a difference between a husband and the girl's father.

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