possible bug reg Pritanoi skirmishers in campaign

[Not_a_Strategist_yet]

Ok did some testing myself.

In the descr_projectile file I can see this at top:

; to calculate projectile parameters take
; d = shot distance from export_unit_descr.txt
; d = v^2 / g (at 45 deg) -> v = sqrt(d*9.81)
; check weapon ranges with angle ranges using
; d = v^2 * sin(2*a) / g

Not sure if this rule must always be followed or it is an entry that bares no importance. Anyway decided to give it a go.
Calculated a new speed of 23 based on those 2 equations and inputed it in javelin.

Now I can get the skirmishers to unlish their javelins at an okay range.
They will not fire them at point blank , eg when directly behind friendly troops,
but also I noticed when cavalry ran away and got out of the 40 range then the animation played but no javelins were fired.

Reverted the value back to original one on purpose in speed and javelins would not fire.

Is there a possibility therefore that the speed needs to be about right using these 2 equations for the javelins to fire at correct range?
I've been a modder for quite a few games but not for TW series appart from some fiddling. So my question is , does the MTW engine judge wether javelins are to be fired based both on projectile speed and range?
Then a speed of about 40 would give a range of 160 and as a result the javelins would not fire with a unit restricted to a range of 40.

If so this could be a possible fix but not sure if it is valid. just a thought
(hope you don't mind me tweeking some stuff and searching for a solution, crazy curiosity just got enabled )

[Ibrahim]

You asssessment regarding the unit's trajectory calculation is largely correct. we've been trying to get them to work at historical ranges--some of which are lower than 40 meters still, but have had great difficulty. will give your proposal a go.

@Tux we can add this to the possible list of fixes.

[Not_a_Strategist_yet]

Scratch the min and max speed values they only seem to increase spread in trajectory of projectiles for some reason.

I used these values:
pilum: speed 25
prec_javelin: speed 26
Javelin: speed 23
projectile_javelin: speed 23
cav_javelin: speed 29
cav_haevy_javelin: speed 22



The behaviour is pretty good, I order skirmishers to fire to enemy formations and this is the result(see pic). Bare in mind they're downhill so the real tragectory is not steep as appears in the pic. Damn those men how can someone take a nice screenshot if they don't synchronize their throw ! .

Only problem is when behind friendly forces and close to enemy attacking sometimes only a few will fire javelins. But I guess that's not such a big deal as firing javelins next to your own troops heads is not a good idea anyway.

[Not_a_Strategist_yet]

Now one final problem remains.
The stupid engine delays too much to fire the javelins. Although they get ready to fire once enemies get in range most of the time enemies manage to engage in melee long before the javelin is fired.
It is also a problem with kerns in Britania campaign but they have bigger range that's why they can fire before enemies are upon them.

I'll try play a bit with the delay and raising a bit the max range (like 10m) so they fire at least 1 voley.

I like what you guys have done with shorter range, I don't want to chnage it too much as it forces you to also flank with skirmishers and launch spears before melee. It's just that stupid MTW engine that delays firing too much

[Not_a_Strategist_yet]

Ok summing up the problems, possible fixes and any causes I can think of:

1) Skirmishers not firing any javelins at any occasion except extremely rare:
Using these values for speed in descr_projectile:

pilum: speed 25
prec_javelin: speed 26
Javelin: speed 23
projectile_javelin: speed 23
cav_javelin: speed 29
cav_haevy_javelin: speed 22

seems to correct it along with giving a nice curved flightpath at max range

Those looking for a quick fix for your campaigns you can find the velocity entries in descr_projectile under the projectile names above. Feel free to pm me if it does not work for you and I'll see If I made an error, or post back to this thread anyway.

2) Skirmishers are not able to fire javelins in time when charged upon even when they clearly have reloaded and are ready to attack:

Even after solving problem no1 this one persists. It seems MTWII engine delays the firing after aiming for very long. Even setting delay to 1/10 of a sec for attack in descr_unit will not help. The value of 5/10 s is very small anyway compared to the huge delay the javelin takes to fire after reloading.
Now I think this is because of either AI or MTWII engine, so it could be the case that nothing can be done about it.

If you want to keep historical ranges then this can not be fixed properly I think.

3) Skirmishers can't decide to fire anything with fire at will mode.

Encountered this a few times. Could be AI or engine issue that from close range they can't do this correctly at all times.
So always disable fire at will and use manual attack orders, it seems it only confuses the units.


Sorry can't be of any more help,
but I will continue enjoying my campaign (your work basically EBII team) anyway now my skirmishers can at least fire properly.
Btw simply stunning for a beta near 100 turns now and no CTD

[Not_a_Strategist_yet]

Had some more time recently.
Looking through the projectiles files , saw a few more entries that were not fixed so max elevation and range gave the specified max speed.
Also gave max and min speeds to most projectiles save siege weapons (can't control the speed on these manually anyway in real life).

I used the following thing to determine speeds.
I input max speed so that the unit can fire at max range at max elevation (like 45 or 60 degrees)
Also put in a min speed.
The two speed values also mean not all projectiles have the exact same trajectory (something I don't like personally) and you will see projectiles having a more curved path than before.

Also fine-tuned the skirmishers attempt to make their behaviour better.

Tested and found the new behaviour a bit better but I'm only 1 man so naturally a limited selection of units was tested

Anyway here is the projectiles file for those looking for a temp fix and also the things described above, I can vouch it works for disk version, not sure about steam version.
-old file

PS: Sorry for not asking you EB2 team but if you think it's not appropriate for me to post this, plz feel free to delete the post.

[Sassem]

I think the team is in general happy that people such as you thinker the stats and try out some stuff that is what modding is

will try it out myself