possible bug reg Pritanoi skirmishers in campaign

[Not_a_Strategist_yet]

Hello and thanks for this truly amazing mod.

I started a campaign as Pritanoi and noticed some strange behaviour reg 2 units.
In battle the spear throwing animation plays but only a handfull of spears like 10 or 15 are thrown most of times and at times it seems no spears are thrown or they are invisible.

So far noticed this thing in skirmisher unit and sling-spear militia.But the 2nd could be a false positive because I saw it only once. It's definitely happening with the skirmishers though.

The weird part is that if I go to custom battle the spears are thrown just fine.

Could this be a minor bug or is it a problem on my end and I should start seeing if I installed things fine?
I use this mod above MTW gold, kingdoms patch 1.5.

Thanks

[Poppis]

Yeah skirmishers seem to be bugged for many people. I heard the devs are looking into it.

[Not_a_Strategist_yet]

Ok did some testing myself.

In the descr_projectile file I can see this at top:

; to calculate projectile parameters take
; d = shot distance from export_unit_descr.txt
; d = v^2 / g (at 45 deg) -> v = sqrt(d*9.81)
; check weapon ranges with angle ranges using
; d = v^2 * sin(2*a) / g

Not sure if this rule must always be followed or it is an entry that bares no importance. Anyway decided to give it a go.
Calculated a new speed of 23 based on those 2 equations and inputed it in javelin.

Now I can get the skirmishers to unlish their javelins at an okay range.
They will not fire them at point blank , eg when directly behind friendly troops,
but also I noticed when cavalry ran away and got out of the 40 range then the animation played but no javelins were fired.

Reverted the value back to original one on purpose in speed and javelins would not fire.

Is there a possibility therefore that the speed needs to be about right using these 2 equations for the javelins to fire at correct range?
I've been a modder for quite a few games but not for TW series appart from some fiddling. So my question is , does the MTW engine judge wether javelins are to be fired based both on projectile speed and range?
Then a speed of about 40 would give a range of 160 and as a result the javelins would not fire with a unit restricted to a range of 40.

If so this could be a possible fix but not sure if it is valid. just a thought
(hope you don't mind me tweeking some stuff and searching for a solution, crazy curiosity just got enabled )

[Ibrahim]

You asssessment regarding the unit's trajectory calculation is largely correct. we've been trying to get them to work at historical ranges--some of which are lower than 40 meters still, but have had great difficulty. will give your proposal a go.

@Tux we can add this to the possible list of fixes.

[Not_a_Strategist_yet]

Scratch the min and max speed values they only seem to increase spread in trajectory of projectiles for some reason.

I used these values:
pilum: speed 25
prec_javelin: speed 26
Javelin: speed 23
projectile_javelin: speed 23
cav_javelin: speed 29
cav_haevy_javelin: speed 22



The behaviour is pretty good, I order skirmishers to fire to enemy formations and this is the result(see pic). Bare in mind they're downhill so the real tragectory is not steep as appears in the pic. Damn those men how can someone take a nice screenshot if they don't synchronize their throw ! .

Only problem is when behind friendly forces and close to enemy attacking sometimes only a few will fire javelins. But I guess that's not such a big deal as firing javelins next to your own troops heads is not a good idea anyway.

[Not_a_Strategist_yet]

Now one final problem remains.
The stupid engine delays too much to fire the javelins. Although they get ready to fire once enemies get in range most of the time enemies manage to engage in melee long before the javelin is fired.
It is also a problem with kerns in Britania campaign but they have bigger range that's why they can fire before enemies are upon them.

I'll try play a bit with the delay and raising a bit the max range (like 10m) so they fire at least 1 voley.

I like what you guys have done with shorter range, I don't want to chnage it too much as it forces you to also flank with skirmishers and launch spears before melee. It's just that stupid MTW engine that delays firing too much

[Not_a_Strategist_yet]

Ok summing up the problems, possible fixes and any causes I can think of:

1) Skirmishers not firing any javelins at any occasion except extremely rare:
Using these values for speed in descr_projectile:

pilum: speed 25
prec_javelin: speed 26
Javelin: speed 23
projectile_javelin: speed 23
cav_javelin: speed 29
cav_haevy_javelin: speed 22

seems to correct it along with giving a nice curved flightpath at max range

Those looking for a quick fix for your campaigns you can find the velocity entries in descr_projectile under the projectile names above. Feel free to pm me if it does not work for you and I'll see If I made an error, or post back to this thread anyway.

2) Skirmishers are not able to fire javelins in time when charged upon even when they clearly have reloaded and are ready to attack:

Even after solving problem no1 this one persists. It seems MTWII engine delays the firing after aiming for very long. Even setting delay to 1/10 of a sec for attack in descr_unit will not help. The value of 5/10 s is very small anyway compared to the huge delay the javelin takes to fire after reloading.
Now I think this is because of either AI or MTWII engine, so it could be the case that nothing can be done about it.

If you want to keep historical ranges then this can not be fixed properly I think.

3) Skirmishers can't decide to fire anything with fire at will mode.

Encountered this a few times. Could be AI or engine issue that from close range they can't do this correctly at all times.
So always disable fire at will and use manual attack orders, it seems it only confuses the units.


Sorry can't be of any more help,
but I will continue enjoying my campaign (your work basically EBII team) anyway now my skirmishers can at least fire properly.
Btw simply stunning for a beta near 100 turns now and no CTD

[Not_a_Strategist_yet]

Had some more time recently.
Looking through the projectiles files , saw a few more entries that were not fixed so max elevation and range gave the specified max speed.
Also gave max and min speeds to most projectiles save siege weapons (can't control the speed on these manually anyway in real life).

I used the following thing to determine speeds.
I input max speed so that the unit can fire at max range at max elevation (like 45 or 60 degrees)
Also put in a min speed.
The two speed values also mean not all projectiles have the exact same trajectory (something I don't like personally) and you will see projectiles having a more curved path than before.

Also fine-tuned the skirmishers attempt to make their behaviour better.

Tested and found the new behaviour a bit better but I'm only 1 man so naturally a limited selection of units was tested

Anyway here is the projectiles file for those looking for a temp fix and also the things described above, I can vouch it works for disk version, not sure about steam version.
-old file

PS: Sorry for not asking you EB2 team but if you think it's not appropriate for me to post this, plz feel free to delete the post.

[Sassem]

I think the team is in general happy that people such as you thinker the stats and try out some stuff that is what modding is

will try it out myself

[Not_a_Strategist_yet]

Sorry overlooked the changes in stone projectile in previous file, reuploaded (use same link).
The projectiles file is located in mods/ebii/data/ btw , make sure to save the original one before trying (if you wish so)

Will try to play with the range of javelinmen the following days. The retarded engine delays throw too much so 40 and 45m range while good for historical accuracy is actually no chance of throwing when charged upon so atm you have nearly useless skirmishers basically. Plan is to make a subtle increase of at most 15m (yeah I know not so subtle in real life 15m more are not easy in a throw) but it's only way the stupid engine will permit the javelins to fly in time as far as I can see. (again someone more experienced could know more on the issue).

Make sure to keep the original file.We don't won't the eb2 team to be approached for bugs that are not their own doing, they already have more than enough to deal with.

[Not_a_Strategist_yet]

Was playing with ranges and stuff yesterday and discovered a more serious issue.
When you use fire at will in javelin armed units only 6-8 men at best will reload and fire once enemy comes into range
On the contrary when using a manual attack order all will reaload and fire.
Can someone confirm? It definitelly happens for me with greek akontistai and celtic skirmishers.

Anyway this is what I did to make things slightly better (bug in bold will persist though!)
1) Gave a bit more range like ~10m to javelin troops so all the ranks will be getting ready to fire at the ranges intended by EB team. The max range will be a bit more but it's seldom used anyway. Compromise had to be made. Intention was that all skirmishers can fire at least 1 voley before charged in hand to hand.
2) Much less delay between attacks. MTW engine delays ages to fire anyway. No need for extra scripted delay.
3) All projectiles now have more curved flightpaths at max range and different trajectories allowing them to hit all enemy ranks and not just the first at thos ranges.

For anyone wiling to test the above use the 2 files bellow to replace the original ones in mods/eb2/data. Make sure to backup first!
-OLD FIX, see below for new, better one!

Feedbck is of course appreciated if the new trajectories are better or worse or need changing, etc..

[mmiki]

Early signs are good, the shooting arc looks natural. The engine delay still makes it difficult to let off a volley into charging infantry before they connect. I'd actually increase the ranges a bit further to compensate.

[Sassem]

Was playing with ranges and stuff yesterday and discovered a more serious issue.
When you use fire at will in javelin armed units only 6-8 men at best will reload and fire once enemy comes into range
On the contrary when using a manual attack order all will reaload and fire.
Can someone confirm? It definitelly happens for me with greek akontistai and celtic skirmishers.

does the stat untrained (below) nothing to do with that 6 or 8 man at best throw??

stat_mental 4, normal, untrained


i was just wondering about that when i compared it with other skirmisher type units

[Not_a_Strategist_yet]

Early signs are good, the shooting arc looks natural. The engine delay still makes it difficult to let off a volley into charging infantry before they connect. I'd actually increase the ranges a bit further to compensate.

I think you are right. The problem I'm facing is some skirmisher units fire at 40m without changes in vanilla EB2. Some fire at 60m. I want to keep the values the team thought right by keeping some units more effective than others. I will start fiddling a bit more. I can work out minimum range for them to fire before charged (should be about 60 or 65m) and then give a bit more range to these more effective skirmishers. But in any case I don't want a range of more than 75m for a javelin as it will look really unrealistic.
So maybe:

peasant skirmishers (mean untrained , 16 year old levies destined to flee ) : about 60-65m
normal skirmishers: 65-70m
elite skirmishers: 70-75 m

Will let you know after testing further.

does the stat untrained (below) nothing to do with that 6 or 8 man at best throw??

stat_mental 4, normal, untrained


i was just wondering about that when i compared it with other skirmisher type units

That's actually a good question. I mainly used barbarians as I am hooked to the north european factions for some reasons even If I am from Hellas lol. (maybe because they're something quite different to read about).Maybe only some of them obey the order in time? . Worthy of testing a bit I guess. And easy to fiddle with.

--> time to open the bloody notepad ++ again

[Not_a_Strategist_yet]

does the stat untrained (below) nothing to do with that 6 or 8 man at best throw??

stat_mental 4, normal, untrained

i was just wondering about that when i compared it with other skirmisher type units

My firend I can't thank you enough for this question.
No the training affects only the formation.

but the discipline , the low setting is the culprit for the fire only a few javelins in fire at will.
Seems the stupid engine uses a huge delay between the firing of different parts of the formation when something bellow normal is used.

Even better with discipline set to normal the formation fires their javelins earlier. There is a change with discipline to good and even a slight 10m increase in range they will behave like a charm!

SADLY A FALSE POSITIVE. BY PURE CHANCE THEY ONLY FIRED CORRECTLY 2-3 TIMES!. The issue with fire at will seems more serious than a simple stat issue.
I am considering using a prec javelin with different stats as I know this one works with the new animations. I'll let you know.

Sorry for flase hopes

[Not_a_Strategist_yet]

Update:
Got the javelinmen to all fire their javelins consistently 12 times so far using the fire at will mode.
What's even better got them to fire 1.5 volley at the range initially intended by EB team (40m for example for Katioi) before they go to hand to hand.
I explain more bellow:

1) When I first looked in descr_projectile I saw the only 1 speed was used and it corresponded to javelinmen not firing because that speed was for way longer range.

2) With the first fix I used exactly the speed for the given max range and also a min speed. Javelins fired now but only some

3) However what I failed to take into account is that the range is not same for all the formation. The formation activates to throw the javelins at the given range.
But the side ranks and the ranks more distant than the enemy formation are not in range. Therefore locked in reloading state.
So now I give 25-30% extra speed to max speed, by the time formation is in range, all javelinmen can match the distance to enemy so they reload and fire!
At the same time I have a low min speed so they keep firing till close.
This did not work with initial high speed @ vanilla EBII because there was no speed window. It had to be x value and nothing else.

I am testing this today. So far so good. If this trick works gents, I'll post a permanent fix that will make all javelinmen usable by tomorrow. It may take writing some more javelin entries to satisfy the different ranges of different units.

Just pray things keep on working gents will you?

coffee and off to more testing therefore

[Not_a_Strategist_yet]

Ok final fix I hope

Installation: 1) unzip, 2) drop files in mods\eb2\data replacing old ones (backup first)

Fixes and Enchacements
* Skirmishers should actually work nicely now, with a very few limitations, see below
* Projectiles of even the same type with different range should have better trajectories. To do that a couple entries were made with different stats at reasonably different ranges, eg. arrow150 for 150m or arrow180 for 180m. If you want to use them for coding new units, check projectiles file for the naming. They should cover a wide spectrum of ranges (being 10m off is no big deal anyway)

Special Notices:
*Skirmishers were tested with 12 different units and at least 6 times each unit, so far no problems.
*If a unit CTDs or does not fire after this fix, contact me I may have mispelled an entry
*Ranges are vanilla EB2. In most cases one voley will be fired before charged upon. If you like a bit longer ranges like 10m more plz wait till evening when I'll make a file for you as well. In any case check this one out, you might find it ok.

Limitations:
*Extreme line abreast and line astern formations (e.g only 2 ranks, formations that have very few men in minor direction) may not function well with javelinmen,
Reason is that some of these men will be out of range. In that case for them animation will play but they won't launch spear. In any case those within range will launch them and you only have to blame yourself for using such crazy formations that are not even sensible!
Use a nice formation with 4-5 ranks and everything will be good.
*Loose formations might cause the above in parts of the formation. Consider it natural. If the 1st man is 40m away and the rank 3 is 58 m away that is big difference. move closer with loose formations if you need al spears to fire.
*The above are also valid for cavalry

https://www.sendspace.com/file/rqzkqy

https://www.sendspace.com/file/05sfv0 -version with longer range for low ranged skirmishers , does not fix anything more, only for preference

[Sassem]

i love your dedication to fix a certain problem thank you for trying so many different stats for 1 important/annoying problem

i will try these stats this weekend

[joshmahurin]

Yes seriously thank you so much :) @Ibrahim will be thrilled with your progress I'm sure

[Kull]

Ok final fix I hope

In all seriousness, this is exactly the kind of thing we were hoping to get from knowledgeable fans such as yourself. The team can't be everywhere, working on everything, and in many cases even if we were, the solutions might take a long time to achieve. So THANK YOU for your efforts on this!

[Ibrahim]

Ok final fix I hope

Installation: 1) unzip, 2) drop files in mods\eb2\data replacing old ones (backup first)

Fixes and Enchacements
* Skirmishers should actually work nicely now, with a very few limitations, see below
* Projectiles of even the same type with different range should have better trajectories. To do that a couple entries were made with different stats at reasonably different ranges, eg. arrow150 for 150m or arrow180 for 180m. If you want to use them for coding new units, check projectiles file for the naming. They should cover a wide spectrum of ranges (being 10m off is no big deal anyway)

Special Notices:
*Skirmishers were tested with 12 different units and at least 6 times each unit, so far no problems.
*If a unit CTDs or does not fire after this fix, contact me I may have mispelled an entry
*Ranges are vanilla EB2. In most cases one voley will be fired before charged upon. If you like a bit longer ranges like 10m more plz wait till evening when I'll make a file for you as well. In any case check this one out, you might find it ok.

Limitations:
*Extreme line abreast and line astern formations (e.g only 2 ranks, formations that have very few men in minor direction) may not function well with javelinmen,
Reason is that some of these men will be out of range. In that case for them animation will play but they won't launch spear. In any case those within range will launch them and you only have to blame yourself for using such crazy formations that are not even sensible!
Use a nice formation with 4-5 ranks and everything will be good.
*Loose formations might cause the above in parts of the formation. Consider it natural. If the 1st man is 40m away and the rank 3 is 58 m away that is big difference. move closer with loose formations if you need al spears to fire.
*The above are also valid for cavalry

https://www.sendspace.com/file/rqzkqy

downloading and testing now. Thanks for the help!

[Tux]

Great job there to get these fixed!

Have you also looked at the prec bug and a way to fix it?

[Not_a_Strategist_yet]

Thanks gents. What is the prec bug? Not aware of what you mean there I'm afraid.

PS: Also posted the slightly more range for low ranged skirmishers version, for those that definitelly want more range as a preference. THis is not tested though I use first version personally.

[Ibrahim]

@Not_a_Strategist_yet:

1-first off: thanks for the help! I have decided to make your fix official for the time being, and should be incorporated into future releases. EDIT: with modifications: I've gone ahead and simplified the scheme, so that there wouldn't be as many different types of javelin. There were supposed to be only two ranges anyways: ~30 m and ~50 m (adjusted to 50 and 70 to account for the engine). And I have to say: it works flawlessly for infantry and skirmisher cavalry.
2-the prec_bug is a bug that prevents units who are supposed to throw first before entering melee from actually throwing their javelins properly. it is why at present units who do only get 1 javelin, instead of the correct 2. This wort affects the cavalry who are supposed to throw their javelins then charge (like the Armenian minor nobles).

ADDENDUM: right now your scheme has all but eliminated the problem for the infantry, but the cavalry precs need help. will make arrangements to improve akonstists and relatives.

[Not_a_Strategist_yet]

ADDENDUM: right now your scheme has all but eliminated the problem for the infantry, but the cavalry precs need help. will make arrangements to improve akonstists and relatives.

Yes the cavlary was less tested I have to admit. But I can recognise the problem.
The problem is the formation is much bigger so at max range a lot of them are out of range.

I think you will need to add like 25-30% bigger top speed for the cavalry javelins so all can be in range. Just increase the top speed in cav_javelin and it will be fine.

As for the different projectiles of shame type, don't eliminate the same thing from arrows and long range things to just one value plz if you plan to use it. The thing is to have realistic trajectories you need different speed for an arrow at 140m and 180m. Instead plz keep the values for the ranges you plan and adjust them to your liking like you did with javelins.

[Not_a_Strategist_yet]

Discovered a new cause that prevents the cavalry skirmishers from being usable.
After running away from enemies with skirmish mod, the formation breaks up a bit and even if it does not a lot of the men end up in crazy distances from enemy,
The engine somehow thinks they are in range so it fires and javelins do not fire as a consequence.
Furthermore it retreats them before they actually get in range.

This calls for an aesthetically unpleasant fix. I had to give crazy top speeds to cavalry projectiles so they can reach target after retreating with skirmish mod. Speeds even more than some arrows lol.
This in turn made them miss like hell, so then I had to give them more accuracy as well.

EDIT: FILES TAKEN DOWN. SORRY GENTS, THE ABOVE WORKS FOR CAVALRY WITH SKIRMISH MOD ON BUT VISUALLY IT LOOKS TOO UNREALISTIC< AND THIS MOD LOVES REALISM AFTER ALL. SO PLZ DONT USE SKIRMISH MODE WITH CAVALRY TILL ANOTHER SOLUTION IS FOUND!

Anyone here knows were you can set the distance cavalry will run with skirmish mode on and when skirmish will be enabled? Then I can make a proper fix.

[Not_a_Strategist_yet]

For the skirmisher cavalry, to correct the behaviour described in my posts above.
Plz use these settings in your battle_config.xml (path= mods/eb2/data/)

I try to make them skirmish so that they don't get out of range once they retreat. The changes bellow will make them skirmish when enemy closes the distance a bit more + they won't get as far as before.
So far getting encouraging results.

I don't post the file, because it's not yet confirmed. Plz try it though and sare your thoughts. (changes in bold , look under skirmish section)

<cavalry>
<default>
<!-- ignore targets at a distance greater than the maximum range times this scale factor -->
<max-range-scale>2.0</max-range-scale>
<!-- must skirmish if within this range -->
<min-range>20</min-range>
<!-- stop at this distance if the enemy is blocking the path -->
<min-stopping-range>30</min-stopping-range>
<!-- time to react to being intercepted -->
<collision-reaction-time>1.1</collision-reaction-time>
<!-- retreat buffer time -->
<retreat-time>0.5</retreat-time>
<!-- don't skirmish until attackers are within this fraction of the missile range -->
<range-factor>
<moving>0.7</moving>
<shooting>0.55</shooting>
</range-factor>
<!-- reaction time for cantabrian circle -->
<cantabrian-reaction-time>2.2</cantabrian-reaction-time>
</default>

[Ibrahim]

tried it just now: seems very promising: hippakontistai now punishing infantry and cavalry pretty hard. I approve.

just leaves the prec cavalry. I found that they're more likely to fire when sent on fire at will, though it means no charge bonus.

[Not_a_Strategist_yet]

just leaves the prec cavalry

Can you give me a list of units for those? I can possibly work something out. Was trying to find a cavalry with prec_javelin but could not find any. Or is it the havy_cav_javelin the prec ones?

I think the issue if they still don't work is they need the just a bit more top speed so all are in range before charge. But if you can tell me unit names I can find out.

[Not_a_Strategist_yet]

Never mind I found them.
Cannot fix properly for some reason no trick works. Engine limitation maybe?

Anyway what I can try is fix their behaviour when set to attack with fire at will mode.
*Made the range longer, like 80-90m. It does not matter much because they will throw the javelins at the start of the charge in much closer range anyway.
*Reduced the charging distance. This was done to give them enough time to throw the javelins well ahead of the blow to enemy formation. My hope is with that way at least a portion of the first line will be ready to charge (lowered weapons and stuff) before the blow.

FILE DOWN

Plz give it a try. Besides even if it does not fix things much it will make fire at will more effective for those units in the event of a flanking attack for example.

https://www.sendspace.com/file/vqkup1

Update: Seems I was a bit too extreme with the shorter charge distance, this is amended.
I know it's not quite what intended but with this file they will throw javelins then almost imediately after provided units come towards them will charge.
So not a great fix but at least a visually good one that permits a proper charge while using fire at will.