Should I go to this political rally, as democrat?

Backstory...

We have this party, SvP (Swedish peoples party)...

I don't agree with them, many of them are nazis, the rest are pretty much just stupid.

To get that over the way, I don't see myself ever voting on them.

Now this is the problem.

This election campaign, when they gave had rallys, thousands of people show up to STOP the rally from happening. It's worth saying again, these thousands of protestors are not there to demonstrate against SvP's beliefs or politics, they are there for keeping the rally from happening.

As a democrat, I think this is wrong. Just wrong. You know, Voltaire and all that:

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.


I am seriously thinking it's time to man up and actually follow this ideal.

I guess the people in the rally will be around a hundred people or so, 10.000 people are expected to try to destroy the rally.

Last time they had a rally, it got to the level of police doing cavalry shocks into the demonstrants, among other things. Yeah, this election period in Sweden much resembles a war zone.

We're basically just one step up from Ukraine.



I am a bit torn on this. I dont' support the party, but I support their right to be heard.

I would never go there to fight, I just want to show that me as a democratic citizen support these guys rights to hold a rally, as stupid as it may be.

GAH!!

Thoughts?

I prefer: "The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others."

So, helping a group of moronic thugs is not indicated any more than you have the moral duty to defend someone calling all black people monkeys on the street. In both cases there is likely harm to others so the SvP should have their "rights" attenuated.

Hmmm, I suspect that far, in the depths of your heart, you might... like them a bit...

But seriously, if Voltaire knew about nazis, he would have been a staunch supporter of executing them en masse.
Counter-rallies are an excellent tool to limit their fanbase, as all bullies are afraid of violence.
Not much violence, just a little, to teach them that they are unwelcome.

Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

I prefer: "The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others."

So, helping a group of moronic thugs is not indicated any more than you have the moral duty to defend someone calling all black people monkeys on the street. In both cases there is likely harm to others so the SvP should have their "rights" attenuated.

First of all, this rally is just where I live, so I basically just have to step out of the house I live in.


Your first quote don't match... It's 10.000 people who want to attack a hundred people having an actual political party. By your logic, I should support it as the 10.000 planes to do harm, or have harm as a consequence of their actions (IE, do nothing while thugs attack, and then let the thugs hide in the masses when police calls them out).

SvP don't talk about violence to others, like, at all. They just want Sweden to work for the Swedes. In some cases they are a bit extreme for my liking, though. Thus I wont vote for them.

Also, the police will be there trying to separate the groups. In effect, trying to protect the rally.

And that is what pisses me off, everyone should be able to have a rally, planned in advance, with open invitations... Without having extremists on the left (as in this case) trying to hurt those being there.

I don't stand up for the party, I stand up for their right to be able to be heard without being attacked physically.

Originally Posted by Crandar

Hmmm, I suspect that far, in the depths of your heart, you might... like them a bit...

Nah. I disagree with more issues than I agree with. Also, the issues I agree with are of less concern to me than the issues I don't agree with.

So nah. I don't see myself ever voting for them. At all.

But seriously, if Voltaire knew about nazis, he would have been a staunch supporter of executing them en masse.

This might be the dumbest sentence uttered in the backroom, like, ever. I could go into detail as to why, but re-think it a couple of times - and you might come up with an answer yourself.

Or do you mean that he thought as he did, except for political partys he just didn't like...

Counter-rallies are an excellent tool to limit their fanbase, as all bullies are afraid of violence.
Not much violence, just a little, to teach them that they are unwelcome.

If you don't agree with a party, don't vote for them. It's quite simple, really.

However, to fight against people being HEARD, is another democratical question, completely.

Fascists, anti-fascists... they deserve each other so I would just leave them to hash it out themselves.

As long as the authorities allow both the demonstration and counter-demonstration to take place, all is well and all are free.

Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

Fascists, anti-fascists... they deserve each other so I would just leave them to hash it out themselves.

As long as the authorities allow both the demonstration and counter-demonstration to take place, all is well and all are free.

Yeah, that would be the argument I can believe in. As long as the police effectively manage to break them up.

Would you buy them a beer. People who go to political rallies or take whatever political position take theirselves too seriously imho.

The ideas of nazists, like the Swedish Democrats, violate the laws and the most basic, moral principles of the humanity, so prohibiting them, even violently, from expressing their power or views is fine for me.

Originally Posted by Fragony

Would you buy them a beer. People who go to political rallies or take whatever political position take theirselves too seriously imho.

Dude, I am a former ski instructor / bartender...

If you have two legs and don't offend me, I am likely to buy you a beer :)


EDIT: Probably shouldn't have force fed them pelicans though...

This isn't a political party.

These are straight-up nazis. Not some of them. All of them.

This isn't a party who is just more opposed to immigration than others. These guys are proper nazis, they go straight to genetics. The first point in their party program states clearly that they will only allow genetical swedes to reside in Sweden. No filthy adopted kids, no dirty slavs or hispanics. The second point in their program states that only swedes may have any kind of position of power in Sweden. Norwegian immigrants are apparently a big nuisance to them. Their principle program starts by asserting that human history is a history of combat. They define Sweden and Swedish by blut und boden.

This isn't a political party. These are genocidal maniacs masquerading as a political party.

Fuck 'em.

I guess what I am aiming at, is that I don't want political violence where I live. Regardless of the case.


So you don't want the party out to murder newborn babies and sell them to aliens? Then don't vote for them, simple as that.

If you want to hear what a political party have to say, you should be ******* GUARANTEED not to have to meet violence going there.

Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

I guess what I am aiming at, is that I don't want political violence where I live. Regardless of the case.


So you don't want the party out to murder newborn babies and sell them to aliens? Then don't vote for them, simple as that.

If you want to hear what a political party have to say, you should be ******* GUARANTEED not to have to meet violence going there.

For political parties, allright.

But what we're talking about here isn't a political party. We are talking about nazis trying to recruit more skinheads to beat up immigrants.

Further, we have the right to free speech here. We do not have the right to be heard.

As a democrat, I think this is wrong. Just wrong. You know, Voltaire and all that:

Voltaire never said that.

HT, It's like you still think I give a rats behind about what you think, feel or experience.

Originally Posted by Hax

Voltaire never said that.

The Voltaire quote he said (well, albeitly in french)... Your quote of me was just in the gist of it.

Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

HT, It's like you still think I give a rats behind about what you think, feel or experience.

Originally Posted by HoreTore

This isn't a political party.

These are straight-up nazis. Not some of them. All of them.

This isn't a party who is just more opposed to immigration than others. These guys are proper nazis, they go straight to genetics. The first point in their party program states clearly that they will only allow genetical swedes to reside in Sweden. No filthy adopted kids, no dirty slavs or hispanics. The second point in their program states that only swedes may have any kind of position of power in Sweden. Norwegian immigrants are apparently a big nuisance to them. Their principle program starts by asserting that human history is a history of combat. They define Sweden and Swedish by blut und boden.

This isn't a political party. These are genocidal maniacs masquerading as a political party.

Fuck 'em.

Is Kad talking up a party that would deport him if they get into power?

Originally Posted by Pannonian

Is Kad talking up a party that would deport him if they get into power?

IIRC, they will allow non-Swedish Europeans to reside as second-class citizens.

But, yeah.

Originally Posted by Pannonian

Is Kad talking up a party that would expel him if they get into power?

I don't know about "talking up". I dislike them, but as they are a democratical party, and I am a democrat, I support their rights.

It's not about what they think, it's about their right to say it in an election campaign.

EDIT: I am certain they wont get enough votes to make it a problem for people like me.

Originally Posted by HoreTore

IIRC, they will allow non-Swedish Europeans to reside as second-class citizens.

But, yeah.

Perioikoi, or helots?

Originally Posted by Pannonian

Perioikoi, or helots?

Metics.

Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

they are a democratical party

Their projects don't seem particularly democratic.

Originally Posted by HoreTore

Metics.

Those were in Athenes. Sweden is more like Sparta.

Originally Posted by Crandar

Those were in Athenes. Sweden is more like Sparta.

That was the point: the social status is more akin to the one given to foreigners in Athens than any of the Spartan versions.

Kad, I don't mean to attack you in any way by saying this, but would it be fair to say that you have some sort of sympathy for the ideological platform that the SvP takes?

Considering that you seem to at least flirt with racialist ideas, I can't help but wonder if you are a little bit curious about what the SvP has to say, and that the 'freedom to speech' angle is in fact just a way of justifying (probably to yourself more than anybody else) your going along and meeting with them. On another note, I wonder if perhaps you feel a bit sorry for them purely because they are the underdogs, and/or because they represent some sort of dissent against the prevailing liberal/neo-con order.

I am sorry to do all this surmising about your motivations... it's just that, in my own experience, sometimes that combination of misguided sympathy and general disenchantment with 'the establishment' can lead to you giving support to the sort of people that you know on some level you really shouldn't be supporting. You are better than these knuckle-dragging skinheads and they don't deserve your time.

Now run along... and remember to do your homework and stay away from drugs.

Originally Posted by HoreTore

For political parties, allright.

But what we're talking about here isn't a political party. We are talking about nazis trying to recruit more skinheads to beat up immigrants.

Further, we have the right to free speech here. We do not have the right to be heard.

Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

HT, It's like you still think I give a rats behind about what you think, feel or experience.

Ah, Swedes and Norwegians fighting again.

Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

Kad, I don't mean to attack you in any way by saying this, but would it be fair to say that you have some sort of sympathy for the ideological platform that the SvP takes?

Considering that you seem to at least flirt with racialist ideas, I can't help but wonder if you are a little bit curious about what the SvP has to say, and that the 'freedom to speech' angle is in fact just a way of justifying (probably to yourself more than anybody else) your going along and meeting with them. On another note, I wonder if perhaps you feel a bit sorry for them purely because they are the underdogs, and/or because they represent some sort of dissent against the prevailing liberal/neo-con order.

I am sorry to do all this surmising about your motivations... it's just that, in my own experience, sometimes that combination of misguided sympathy and general disenchantment with 'the establishment' can lead to you giving support to the sort of people that you know on some level you really shouldn't be supporting. You are better than these knuckle-dragging skinheads and they don't deserve your time.

Now run along... and remember to do your homework and stay away from drugs.

In all Swedish political barometers, I am 50/50 extreme right and extreme left.

I am all for a socialistic environment with high taxes and where everyone have an equal right. I am also in favour of nationalism where Swedes act for the better of Sweden.



You all must consider, that the Swedish political compass is like this big. In the US, any party would fit in with the democrats, and come off as the extreme left wing. In the UK, every party would fit in with the Labour party.


I seriously don't agree with these guys, however, I would like to listen to them as it straight outside where I live. I would also like to protect their right as thousands of people try to kill it.

That they are underdogs is of course another factor. Who wouldnt support the underdog in questions they don't care about?

My racial ideas have nothing to do with nazism, and little to do with what SVP proposes. At least that's what I THINK as I haven't heard SvP speak, I know only what leftist media tell me about them.

That's kind of being vehemently against a party as the Fox News said "it's liberal".



In essence: I am more against protesters trying to stop a political rally, than I am opposed to the idea that partys I don't agree with should be kept silent.

Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

In all Swedish political barometers, I am 50/50 extreme right and extreme left.

I am all for a socialistic environment with high taxes and where everyone have an equal right. I am also in favour of nationalism where Swedes act for the better of Sweden.

So you're basically a combo nationalist and socialist? I'm trying to think of a political term that describes that position, but none come to mind.

Originally Posted by Pannonian

So you're basically a combo nationalist and socialist? I'm trying to think of a political term that describes that position, but none come to mind.

That joke was made years ago in the BR, and has been a joke for like 10 more times, that's why I didn't make it.. Shame on you.


Regardless, am I not allowed to be nationalistic? Am I now allowed to be socialistic?

How come that as soon as someone wants a country where everyone is seen as an equal, where everyone can find a job, where everyone trust the people around them... Coupled with a country that firstmost look after their own citizens... It becomes Nazi.




Remember, Sweden is right now selling out our entire wellfare system. We used to have equal schooling and health care, today it's sold out to private companies. Am I not allowed to be socialistically against that?

Sweden is letting in WAY more people than the EU recomendations.. In effect, more than one % of our population a year. And these mainly from the worlds biggest hell-holes of nations. In that light I think I'm fine to be nationalistic.



This however make me vote for the Swedish Democrats in this election. They more or less support my thoughts, they are also in the government.

These two facts together? Do they <equal> me wanting to send Jews to concentration camps?

Again, shame on you Pannonian. It's EXACTLY people who think and theorize like you do, who I am vehemently against. You know absolutely nothing of the issue, but you are more than happy to jump on "the-bandwagon-of-good-people-knowing-they are-right.

IMHO, your argument is retarded.





SvP who holds this rally, I mainly don't agree with at all. I know little about them though, as the swedish media paints them as somewhere more evil than Hitler.

When I read their actual party guidelines, I see little (none) of the Jew-bashing-thingy...

So I would like to hear them, given they have a rally just outside where I live.

Shame, shame, shame on you for painting that in a nazi light. That is no way for a democracy to move forwards.

Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

That they are underdogs is of course another factor. Who wouldnt support the underdog in questions they don't care about?

My racial ideas have nothing to do with nazism, and little to do with what SVP proposes. At least that's what I THINK as I haven't heard SvP speak, I know only what leftist media tell me about them.

That's kind of being vehemently against a party as the Fox News said "it's liberal".

Eh, you could read their party program (English version even! Language traitors!!!!). They do have a homepage. SD got notable facist leanings, SVP is facists, down to questioning democracy (to build something better, somehow).

Really, the cops are there. And they're allowed to have a homepage. That's enough for you to accept for them to say their word. After all, the opposition are also saying theirs.

Replace SVP with an ISIS recruitment drive. Still want to go out and defend them? I can add that they're in some ways the Swedish version of ISIS (ISIS is obsessed with their version of purity for example).
People are people, no matter were they live. What changes are the cultural manifistation.