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Thread: Lugionnes

  1. #1

    Default Lugionnes

    Hello,

    Just wanted to ask who made the search for lugionnes history.
    And wanted to ask, what is the future of this faction ? Will lugionnes have reforms and cities with walls or will it be like this? thnx

    Just wanted to say That i am lithuanian myself and descriptions about them isn't very true ;)

  2. #2
    Member Member Thaatu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lugionnes

    Quote Originally Posted by brodinis View Post
    Just wanted to say That i am lithuanian myself and descriptions about them isn't very true ;)
    The thing is, they weren't Lithuanians. It's always helpful to keep nationalism out of prehistory. Which descriptions are you referring to? In the game or in general?

    I don't know of any settlement sites of the Przeworsk Culture that had walls, certainly not walled cities. In the game they have a very small reform already implemented, which upgrades some of the units from early to late versions. This will probably be refined and perhaps enlarged. Maybe even more regional units will be added. Although even in its current state it's a really fun faction to play as.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Lugionnes

    Quote Originally Posted by Thaatu View Post
    The thing is, they weren't Lithuanians. It's always helpful to keep nationalism out of prehistory. Which descriptions are you referring to? In the game or in general?

    I don't know of any settlement sites of the Przeworsk Culture that had walls, certainly not walled cities. In the game they have a very small reform already implemented, which upgrades some of the units from early to late versions. This will probably be refined and perhaps enlarged. Maybe even more regional units will be added. Although even in its current state it's a really fun faction to play as.
    Hmm, if they weren't Lithuanians, why do you use Lithuanian words for their troop names and region names?
    Lithuanian language is the oldest language in the world or one of the oldest that survived into these days.. The position of lugioni tribe is indeed in Poland lands ( the starter position ) Poland language is like day and night from Lithuanian language and the Przeworsk word is indeed Polish. WHAT i mean by that, you used Polish AND Lithuanian languages at the same tribe( faction). Many dieties you involved into this faction is INDEED THOSE of Lithuanian pagan( baltic) culture NOT POLISH. So you included 2 completely different cultures and languages into the same tribe( faction) and this is historically innacurate. People who lived in Poland lands weren't Lithaunians and indeed DID NOT had these dieties like PERKUNAS THE Lithuanian PAGAN GOD OF THUNDER AND SKIES. Then goes GILTINE the diety of death same goes to SAULE ( WHICH IS A LITHUANIAN WORD AND MEANS "SUN") . Now troop type names : ASWINIAI CALVALRY ( sons of DIEVAS ) THe word DIEVAS is A LITHAUNIAN WORD which means GOD. Then there is a spear unit TAUTAGINOI which is written by EB2 team with mistakes it should be "Tauta gina" or " Gina Tauta " . Which means "defends the nation" All these words as LITHUANIANS we speak today. You used OUR words and made them with Polish letters w z. And for the last statement, LITHUANIAN language is very rare because it is very old( one of the oldest languages in the world) and OUR WORDS from those times when this language was born really not much changed, so i can safely assume that when i read through the content of history of lugionnes You used LITHUANIAN LANGUAGE. Because those words you used i understood, why i understood them? because their are Lithuanian words, and Lithuanians never lived in Polish lands, They were BALTS, and the word of province ESTUWA you used IS a REMAKE of Lithaunian Word of ESTIJA which was on that times non existent country which you can refer now as A Baltic Country Estonia. Same goes the for the word "Dan gus" EB2 team used for reffering "sky people" or so " Dangus" is indeed a lithaunian word witch means " Sky" and goddes "LAIME" which is a lithaunian word, Laime was lithaunian pagan goddes of happines, LAIME means happines. So from EB2 team perspective you refer that lugionni were some lithuanian tribe, witch i assume it wasn't, because of the location of the lugionni faction is indeed deep in Poland. And Polish people never had or will have those dieties. And i don't know for sure that baltic tribes( who's is direct ancestors of lithuanians ) were living in that area witch is Pwerweorsk.

    I don't mean any harm for the project, i love this mod and you for making it. But try to make history right and don't involve into polish faction lithuanian dieties and troop names, those were baltic pagan lithuanians not the region the Lugionni represent as i see.
    Last edited by brodinis; 09-04-2014 at 09:41.

  4. #4
    COYATOYPIKC Senior Member Flatout Minigame Champion Arjos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lugionnes

    Lithuanian is not oldest per se, it is rather conservative compared to what was the Indo-European language...

    The Lougiones were a confederation of tribes speaking a West Baltic language, possibly related to Old Prussian. You may perceive similaries, like for example I do between Latin and Italian, but what is being used in EBII is a reconstructed pre-Satem West Baltic dialect. It also does not use any alphabet from modern languages, but attempts to convey a phonological transcription closest possible to the sounds of the period...

  5. #5

    Default Re: Lugionnes

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjos View Post
    Lithuanian is not oldest per se, it is rather conservative compared to what was the Indo-European language...

    The Lougiones were a confederation of tribes speaking a West Baltic language, possibly related to Old Prussian. You may perceive similaries, like for example I do between Latin and Italian, but what is being used in EBII is a reconstructed pre-Satem West Baltic dialect. It also does not use any alphabet from modern languages, but attempts to convey a phonological transcription closest possible to the sounds of the period...
    Hello, I can call any lithuanian citizen to read the history of lugionnes and they will tell you the same. Those dieties you used for luggiones ARE indeed pagan lithuanian dieties. Why because every lithuanian knows that, and no one of Prussian or polish people really had those dieties, unless balts were migrating or assimilated with this so called luggioni tribe witch isn't true if i know my nations history. If the words you used for dieties for this faction is true.. then luggiones is pagan lithuanian ancestors, witch i doubt it really hard. And yes, lithuanian language is Indo-European kind of language that came form Sanskrit, and this language had very small changes per thousands of years until now, that is why by all scientists it is refered the oldest Indo-European language that survived to this day and changed very little. So as WE lithaunians speak this language today, it is very confirmed that balts and people form Asia spoke very simmilar as we have today in Lithuania. ;)
    Last edited by brodinis; 09-04-2014 at 09:59.

  6. #6
    COYATOYPIKC Senior Member Flatout Minigame Champion Arjos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lugionnes

    The Lougiones shared a common Baltic religion, which Lithuanian Paganism is one of its descendants. Everything does not require direct lineage or migrations as an explainations, there existed a far older set of beliefs in the area...

    That Slavic, Germanic and Baltic peoples much later in history caused the ethnogenesis of the Polish people is a completely different matter...

    If you research Old Prussian mythology you will find a lot of deities, shared with the Lithuanian one. In the Neolithic much of the region was inhabited by people speaking a common Baltic language, out of which languages like Galindian, Sudovian, Prussian, Selonian, Semigallian, Latvian and Lithuanian emerged...

    Overall, like you, I do not think that the Lougiones were the direct Lithuanian ancestors, but both the Lougiones and the Lithuanians have common Baltic roots :)
    Last edited by Arjos; 09-04-2014 at 10:14.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Lugionnes

    Well i don't believe they were. But maybe there is truth to this faction. Maybe this language was transferred to balts, but those dieties man, is indeed pagan lithuanian dieties ;) Perkunas was like Zeus of the greek gods. We have his altars to this day in Lithuania, Belarus lands ;) If the lugionni decription is true, then Lithuania's have many simmilarities to this faction like dieties, words and even troop words. in EB1 there were some mercenary troops types in this region called by EB team "Medininkos" or " "lankininkos" which is lithuanian words Medininkas ( wood man ) and lankininkos ( archer ) Soo this faction i can assume has very simmilar things with lithuanians ;)

    Since you responded to me, thanks to you, could you please, write me the Lugionni faction reform in more detail? How to obtain it ? I am playing/ testing it right now, and it is really hard to fight against other faction heavy troop types ;) Pleasee ;) I would want to see to them more factional troops, because there is a lack of them. Thank you !

  8. #8
    Member Member Thaatu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lugionnes

    What I was referring to, about them not being Lithuanians, is that modern nationalities, as well as modern ethnicities, are incomparable with prehistoric ones, especially since we're going as far back in time as 2300-2000 years. Modern Greeks aren't ancient Greek, the same thing with Italians and Romans, French and Gauls, Britons and British, even Germanic people and Germans. The societies themselves go through changes, so do languages, religions and genetic compositions if you want to go that deep. In 2000 years ethnic groups experience transformations that make them completely unrecognizable. Since there are no written languages from 300 BC Eastern Germany and the Baltic, which would offer primary sources for language and religion, modern reconstructions have to used. These reconstructions often don't take into account randomness and chaos. In reality there were most likely many languages and religions within the area, most of which haven't left recognizable traces. The one that is used for Lugians is one that left enough traces for feasible reconstruction. On religion, the name PerkwŁnas is indeed a root word reconstructed from Perkunas. That is the name PerkwŁnas has originally been used perhaps in a larger area, or a different area, but has later settled and preserved in Lithuanian (and Finnish as Perkele).


    If you have trouble against heavy infantry, I suggest you hire mercenaries. Boii have some very effective swordsmen. Lugians represent a society that has a very loose political structure, little organized production and ad hoc soldiery. A collection of local communities that are drawn together when major outside threats arise. Their warfare is mainly an extension of trade, i.e. cattle raids and skirmishes, where the main objective is not to kill the enemy but to acquire wealth. They shouldn't have heavy infantry or anything like that, but instead rely on ambushes and harassment. The reform I got accidentally by 220 BC after I had taken control of three surrounding provinces. It upgraded the medium spearmen to have a better shield and also the medium horsemen to have a sword instead of a spear. I don't know the specific requirements and don't know if there are some other effects, but I guess this will be improved, as there are also "early light spearmen", which didn't get upgraded to the late-version.

    They quickly became my favorite "barbarian" faction, so I hope they get as much further development as possible.

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  9. #9
    Member Member Zarrr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lugionnes

    Hey, Lugiones (peoples of Przeworsk culture) is the most probably a germanic people (with celtic influence), not Baltic (the majority of Polish archeologist to think so).

    Przeworsk culture has a relationship with Jastorf (Suebian) culture and arise in uninhabited area of earlier Pomeranian culture. Baltic people (Aesti?) represent in this time a West-Baltic cairn culture in North-East Poland, Kaliningrad oblast and Lithuania, their represented a late bronze age culture.

    Sorry for my bad English. I hope you will understand what I mean.

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    Bruadair a'Bruaisan Member cmacq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lugionnes

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarrr View Post
    Hey, Lugiones (peoples of Przeworsk culture) is the most probably a germanic people (with celtic influence), not Baltic (the majority of Polish archeologist to think so).

    Przeworsk culture has a relationship with Jastorf (Suebian) culture and arise in uninhabited area of earlier Pomeranian culture. Baltic people (Aesti?) represent in this time a West-Baltic cairn culture in North-East Poland, Kaliningrad oblast and Lithuania, their represented a late bronze age culture.

    Sorry for my bad English. I hope you will understand what I mean.
    Based on extensive research I designed the Lugii (from the Latin) faction. I also had a great deal of input into the development of the early Swabian faction as well. In fact the Jastorf culture began as a local expression of the Pomeranian culture and didn't actually demonstrate what may considered non-Celtic or something not directly associated with the Pomeranian culture, until the Ripdorf phase or Letene C around 300 BC. However, it was not until the Seedorf phase or Letene D, around the late 2nd century BC when the first traits possibly associated with the Swabian/Suevi or what may be considered early Germanic-speakers first appears in the lower Elbe region. Researchers have associated these new traits with the ethno-genesis of the historic Longobardoz, one of the main tribes of the early Swabians/Suevi confederation.

    As you may know from history the Suevi tribes, as a people associated with Old High German, were eventually pushed off the lower Elbe with some finding new homes in Bohemia, Bavaria, Austria, Swabia, Hesse, Switzerland, and others as far afield as northern Italy and Spain. Yet in mythological terms the various historic Swabians claimed a descent from northern Scandinavia, and a massive amount of archaeological research conduced in the last 20 years is only now beginning to confirm.

    For the most part I wrote an extensive overview of the late Bronze to early Iron Age archaeology of Greater Germania, as defined by the Romans. However its inclusion within EB II was not practical. Nonetheless, from the archaeology its very clear that by the Late Bronze Age Greater Germania was dominated by two linguistic groups; the P-Celts with two main subdivisions (Noric/Volcae or east-Celts in the south and west and the Brythonic/Belgae in the north and west) and the Balts with two main subdivisions (west-Balts in the north and center and the east-Balts in the east extending into Greater Scythia). Much later what eventually became known as Slav developed in the seam between the east-Balts and the Indo-Iranians while German-speakers developed in the seam between the west-Balts, and Sami people of northern Scandinavia to include the west-Germanic later merging with Celtic Volcae, Belgae, and Gaulish peoples. If you like I may be convinced to post this information here. It also deals with linguistics and addresses the commonality found in Celt, Baltic, and Norse mythology.
    Last edited by cmacq; 03-24-2015 at 10:14.
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