RIP Ian Paisley

**Greyblades** · 09-15-2014, 09:09

Ugh. Kindly keep your libertarian "seperatism for its own sake" drivel to your own continent please.

**ICantSpellDawg** · 09-17-2014, 02:30

Originally Posted by Greyblades

Ugh. Kindly keep your libertarian "seperatism for its own sake" drivel to your own continent please.

Let's see where the Scots-Irish Orangemen go after the referendum - if it comes to a "YES" win. Right now, they support continued Union; what will happen if Scotland becomes an independent nation? What do Scots-Irish believe in then? Will it rupture their coalition with the Anglo-Irish?

How can Scots, in Ireland, rationalize demanding that NI remain part of the Union when their own homeland isn't even a part of the Union anymore? What do they do!??!? Where does the vestigial Unionist movement go with Paisley dead and Scotland de-unionized? Into the Orange Turd Bucket and out the door!

As much as I respect the UK - there is something delicious to this stuff. For a libertarian/American/Gael; this is too good to be true.

**Montmorency** · 09-17-2014, 02:45

How can Scots, in Ireland, rationalize demanding that NI remain part of the Union when their own homeland isn't even a part of the Union anymore?

Northern Ireland is not Scotland? Northern-Irish Scots are not Scottish Scots?

By this logic, you should be one of those people who fervently believe that the "Latins" are out to 'colonize' the US.

**Greyblades** · 09-17-2014, 11:24

Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg

Let's see where the Scots-Irish Orangemen go after the referendum - if it comes to a "YES" win. Right now, they support continued Union; what will happen if Scotland becomes an independent nation? What do Scots-Irish believe in then? Will it rupture their coalition with the Anglo-Irish?

How can Scots, in Ireland, rationalize demanding that NI remain part of the Union when their own homeland isn't even a part of the Union anymore? What do they do!??!? Where does the vestigial Unionist movement go with Paisley dead and Scotland de-unionized? Into the Orange Turd Bucket and out the door!

As much as I respect the UK - there is something delicious to this stuff. For a libertarian/American/Gael; this is too good to be true.

They're not in the union because they have no way out they're in it because they dont want to leave and one group now wanting to leave wont automatically open the floodgates. If it did the troubles wouldnt have ended and the refurrendum wouldnt be such a close thing. Your assumption that everyone is in the union because they had no choice and will jump at the chance is frankly insulting.

**Pannonian** · 09-17-2014, 11:39

Originally Posted by Greyblades

They're not in the union because they have no way out they're in it because they dont want to leave. If they did the troubles wouldnt have ended and the refurrendum wouldnt be such a close thing. Your assumption that everyone is in the union because they had no choice and will jump at the chance is frankly insulting and speaks much of your world view.

Stability since the Troubles ended, more public spending per capita than any other constituent part of the UK, free market as part of the EU but with lower taxes, hence booming trade with the Republic. I can't find the graph again, but polls since the 00s show roughly the same number of NI Catholics in favour of the status quo as favour unification with the RoI.

**Rhyfelwyr** · 09-17-2014, 12:14

ICSD brings up some some of the darker undercurrents to the independence issue that the mainstream media have not picked up upon.

You see while polite society is concerning itself with economics, defence, education, employment, social democracy, and all these things so endlessly discussed by politicians on the TV debates; the truth is that for the 'scummier' elements of Scottish society (as they are generally perceived), this is all really just a continuation of the religious wars of the 17th Century. It's the world of Protestant, Anglo-Saxon British monarchy against the world of Catholic, Gaelic republicanism.

Working-class Catholics are much more likely to vote Yes than working-class Protestants. These views are mirrored by the respective communities in Northern Ireland. The polls conducted at the forums of fan groups for a certain two football clubs are pretty telling. At a Celtic forum 86% say Yes to independence. At a Rangers one, just 16% say Yes.

The media has ignored this dynamic to things. Not consciously in the sense they are biased or conspiratorial; rather it is simply because the working-class PUL (Protestant Unionist Loyalist) and CNR (Catholic Nationalist Republican) communities you find mainly in Western/Central Scotland do not have the social capital to make their voices heard.

It is almost like some sort of completely independent debate going on in parallel to the main one that the rest of society is concerned with.

**Sarmatian** · 09-17-2014, 11:44

Originally Posted by Greyblades

Ugh. Kindly keep your libertarian "seperatism for its own sake" drivel to your own continent please.

Isn't that the basis for UK's platform for leaving EU - "you're not us and we want to be ruled only by us"?

**Greyblades** · 09-17-2014, 11:50

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Isn't that the basis for UK's platform for leaving EU - "you're not us and we want to be ruled only by us"?

For some, libertarianism isnt unique to america but Scotland has been fairly happy as a part of britain for 300 years and has repeatedly benefited from it whereas Britain has never been happy with europe.

For me, beyond base nationalism which I wont deny, its: "Our politicians are lacklustre, but the european union has repeatedly shown themselves as worse, why would we chose them over ours?"

Plus we get more out of being "with but not of".