Minor Proposal: Reduce the number of provinces in the British Isles

[QuintusSertorius]

In EB1 with 21 factions, there were 8 provinces in the British Isles. AI Casse, left to its own devices, never really did anything beyond consolidating this region, then just sat there. For the human player, this offered a challenging (because there were massive Eleutheroi stacks up there) but ultimately safe base from which to build a powerful empire that could then expand onto the continent.

In EBII with 28 (and eventually 30) factions, there are still 8 provinces in the British Isles. AI Pritanoi, as far as I've seen so far, still never does anything but consolidate the British Isles, becoming massively rich when they do so. I have seen the occasional building of navies and landing of troops in Gaul, but they never do anything beyond that. For the player, it a safe, protected space to carve out your own economic base without risk of interference from any other faction, before you have to consider turning your sights on the continent.

There are more provinces in the British Isles than in Greece proper. Or in Italy. Almost as many as in Anatolia. In moving from EB1 to EBII we actually reduced the number of provinces in Greece, a pretty pivotal and important area in the period. Given the hard limit in the number of provinces (200), and the need to share the spotlight around, I don't think so many provinces in so peripheral and marginal an area is justifiable. My experience of EBII so far says you only need three provinces to get an economically viable kingdom, I don't think the Pritanoi's starting position should merit them more than that.

So here's what I propose: reduce the number of provinces in the British Isles to 4, and redistribute those four freed up provinces elsewhere. Perhaps some to the Balkans more generally, if there's going to be a new faction there (like an Illyrian tribe or the Skordiskoi). Maybe some more in the east. Perhaps another province in Greece. Either way, I think gameplay would be improved by limiting AI Pritanoi and making human-played Pritanoi have to look to Gaul much sooner.

[Brennus]

There are certainly some valid points raised here, and indeed this issue has been raised in the past within the team itself. However, as the Faction Coordinator responsible for the Pritanoi, I would not be happy seeing the number of provinces in Britain reduced. The reasons for this are not simply sentimental or protectionist, although it cannot be ignored that they play a part. Rather it partly to do with future gameplay, and partly to do with current gamelplay. First of all the British Isles are complete in terms of province descriptions, which is more than can be said for other regions of the EBII map including Italy and Gaul. Now, obviously this represents a sizeable amount of time invested into writing these, but it also means that by removing them and replacing them with 4 new provinces we lose an area of the game which is already complete. If, as may very well be the case, that the Belgae are voted by the team as a future faction, it will mean development of that faction will be delayed by the fact that 4 new Pritanoi provinces would have to be written.

On an historical note, reducing the British Isles to 4 provinces does a diservice to the archaeological data which we have for the region, and reduces a very vibrant and varied set of Iron Age communities to, in my opinion, the sort of homogenous vanilla Rome barbarians. We have much more data available for the Iron Age in Britain than we do for other areas, such as the Balkans (and hence the Scordisci). If we were to reduce Britain to 4 provinces then we may as well remove the Pritanoi alltogether (who already have all their descriptions and unique government finished). We already have concepts for 7 new British Isles based units which will add to the area. We are hoping to begin work on these soon.


Replacing thse provinces will also mean that we need to redress the mechanics which govern the map. Removing them will mean that the British Isles will not only need to be adjusted, but also that the area we add them to will have to be adjusted as well.

The M2TW engine, as can be seen from the AI faction progression thread, is quite good for AI naval invasions, indeed one which was posted shows the Sweboz getting involved in Scotland. With this in mind it shouldn't take much tweaking to make the Pritanoi more inclined to naval invasions.

Finally, if we were to add a Belgic faction to the mix then I am hoping to make one of the victory conditions for this faction to be conquest of large parts of Britain and defeat of the Pritanoi. Reducing Britain to 4 provinces would dum down such victory conditions.

[clone]

to be i honest even if this is minor i agree with QuintusSertorius.
britan right now has too many provinced compared to its importance at that time. not some much historically but at least gameplay wise.
in britan you have only one faction there without another one to delay pritanoi.how many factions take advantage of britania as a theater of war,only one plus hypothetical invasions from one or two factions usually the germans or one celtic facton.
3 more provinces in greece or balkans for example you have the following factions benifited:KH,Mac,Epeiros,pergamos,rome,getai,pontos,ptolemeoi

[Harkon]

True. I am surprised the team even gave the British Isles so much work and descriptions already. Certainly France, Germany and more eastern areas could use these provinces for greater gameplay effect while still having good historical data available. Britain is an extremely niche area for battles in the game, surely a much more conflict filled area with many more different communities like the ones mentioned is more worthy of representation.

[Brennus]

True. I am surprised the team even gave the British Isles so much work and descriptions already.

Having a faction coordinator who spends his real life examining the British Iron Age, coupled with the fact English is his first language, tends to be a key factor in this.

[Brennus]

@QuintusSertorius

I have been attempting to respond to your thread at TWC, but for some darn reason I can't seem to get my posts actually posted. I keep being told I need to wait for moderator approval.

With regards the suggestion which is often being posted, that Britain was an isolated area which was tangential to the rest of the world I would like to defend the position by noting that for much of the later Iron Age (La Tene period) southwestern Britain and Armorica were involved in a vibrant and intense maritime exchange. From c.120BC onward there is evidence for even more intense exchanges between Belgic Gaul and south eastern Britain. There is even slight evidence for contact between the east of Britain and Europe across the North Sea. The druidic tradition was established in Britain and exported to the continent, likely c.600BC (according to Jean-Louis Brunaux). Two potins (high tin cast coins) have been recovered from the Arverni oppida of Corent, attesting to contacts, albeit possibly indirectly, between the Britons and Arverni prior to the start of the Gallic Wars. Likewise the tin trade should not be underestimated, and was responsible to varying degree for the wealth of the Armorican tribes and the Bituriges who occupied the Loire valley.

[ziegenpeter]

I have to agree with QuintusSertorius on this one. And the fact that so much work already went into the descriptions is not a valid point. You could hyperbolicly say that the most zealous description writer gets more provinces. And I certainly dont want to come across as a prick, knowing how much work you guys put nto this wonderful mod (and I didnt), but isnt the distribution of the provinces something you figure out before you make the descriptions and governments?
Cheers&Regards
ZiePe

[a completely inoffensive name]

I would have suggested that no regions be stripped from the region, but having one region taken away is a good compromise. Tbh, every single one of my games has macedonia become a powerhouse by turn 100 because it takes over all of Greece and is swimming in money and troops. Take that extra region and put it somewhere east.

[Sarkiss]

there are regions that could definitely use additional provinces. There is an extra faction in Iberia; Middle East seen an introduction of Nabatea but lose of Phoenicia (merged), which was one of the key regional provinces and a unique mercantile and naval asset for whoever controled it; Anatolia, with an added Pergamon but no extra provinces, and which could perhaps benefit from addition of Lycaonia.

this doesn’t mean Greece needs an axe though. It hosts 3 factions yet has the same number of regions as Britain (excluding the northern Epirote province).

[QuintusSertorius]

I agree, I think the restoration of Phoenicia would be a good start.