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  1. #1
    EBII Hod Carrier Member QuintusSertorius's Avatar
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    Default [Unofficial Hotfix] Functional inf/cav javelineers; improved spearmen, faster cavalry

    There's been a large number of complaints about javelin skirmishers in 2.0 and 2.01, most of whom won't actually do what they're supposed to - ie throw their javelins. Which is why I don't feel it presumptuous to call this a hotfix, unofficial though it is, because it fixes the problem. It is something of a quick and dirty fix that circumvents that problem, and I expect it'll be resolved more properly by the team when they get round to it, but in the meantime, this works.

    In addition to fixing infantry and cavalry javelineers, I've also addressed two other lesser issues, which have also been confirmed by the team as in need of fixing. They being a missed update to infantry using a spear as their secondary weapon and that cavalry are currently too slow. Both will be officially fixed later, but again while we're waiting for the next release, this is an improvement on those. While less important than the first two, they are still significant in their impact on the dynamics of a battle. Broadly the aim was to bring things into line with the EB1 experience, as far as is possible with a different engine.

    Furthermore, this is a simple fix, all the changes come out of the export_descr_unit.txt and not the supporting files, so that's the only thing you need to install. However, it is unlikely to be savegame compatible, so you will need a new game for the changes to take effect.

    To use, simply extract this Attachment 14581 and install in [Your M2TW folder]\mods\EBII\data. Make sure you back up your original EDU first.

    EDIT: I've made one small change for underarm lancers, but it's not vital like many of the others. If you want it, download this Attachment 14607 instead of the one above.

    If you just want those things sorted, you're set. However, if you want more detail on what's changed, read on. I'll take each change in turn and explain what's going on.



    1) Secondary spear users

    An update was supposed to have made it's way into 2.01, whereby everyone using a spear (but not a pike) would use the light_spear attribute, rather than spear. However, only primary-weapon spear users got this update, leaving those with a spear as their secondary weapon with the spear attribute. What this mean was that they were terrible at keeping their formation, would push deep into other units, and would often lose in melee against other infantry (even inferior units).

    This was a very simple fix; I went through all the infantry units with the spear attribute and changed it to light_spear, removing any spear_bonus_x attribute that was there (since none of the primary spear users have it).

    Affected units:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Uisusparos Kingetoi
    Mercenary Uisusparos Kingetoi
    Berukomtouga Selgoi
    Gaisatoi
    Ambactoi
    Toutanakoi
    Uassedoi
    Dugunthiz Early
    Dugunthiz Late
    Gaizafulkan Frijato Early
    Gaizafulkan Frijato Late
    Jugunthiz
    Toutaginoi Bodyguard
    Kareus Late
    Toutaginoi Early
    Toutaginoi Late
    Gestikapoinann
    Retukenoi
    Celtiberian Gaesamica
    Principes Camillan
    Principes Polybian
    Hastati Sabelli
    Hanatim Libim
    Garamantes Infantry
    Sabaean Elite Urban Infantry
    Khamis
    Thureophoroi
    Misthophoroi Thureophoroi
    Ioudaioi Taxeis
    Illyrioi Hoplitai
    Gund i Palta
    Nizagan Eranshahr
    Katpatuka Astibara



    2) Infantry javelineers

    Everyone recognises that at present in both 2.0 and 2.01 javelin skirmishers are useless. They won't throw their javelins, making them at best some weak flankers. There's almost no point recruiting them if they can't perform their primary task of showering the enemy (and their opposite numbers) with javelins. There are three root causes to this problem:

    • Most have a very inefficient animation, which takes too long to get to throwing.
    • They use a weapon which is inaccurate. Have a look in the descr_projectile.txt at the accuracy_vs_units - the lower the number is, the better. So even if they throw, it doesn't do anything.
    • Their range is too short, which interferes with the decision to skirmish. They end up perpetually hovering between "about to throw" and "need to move". This compounds the first issue.




    This was fixed by applying three edits to all javelineers:

    • Changing their animation (via the soldier property) to one of four (depending on their secondary weapon) that do work efficiently: Euzonoi (knife/sword), kareus_late (overhand spear), Garamantes_Inf (underhand spear) and eastern_axeman (axe).
    • Changing their weapon to prec_javelin80, the same one heavier infantry with a precursor weapon use. This does a lot more damage by virtue of being more accurate.
    • Increasing the range for all javelineers from 45-50m to 70m. This increased the window in which they could throw without moving when in skirmish mode.



    Result is that javelineers will now throw and their volleys do real damage if directed against other light infantry or into the rear of a unit.

    Affected units:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Katioi
    Jugunthiz
    Maldais
    Komatai
    Iovamann
    Celtiberian Gaesamica
    Leves
    Libyan Skirmishers
    Numidian Skirmishers
    Maures Infantry
    Akontistai
    Euzonoi
    Illyrioi Peltastai
    Kofyaren-i Para-uparisaina
    Gund i Palta



    3) Javelin cavalry

    I discovered after fixing infantry javelineers that cavalry javelineers have essentially the same problem, with the same outcome: they won't throw their javelins (and even when they do, they have a negligible effect). This required a less extensive change than for infantry, a change of weapon and range was enough. I changed all their weapons to cav_heavy_javelin40 and their range from 45m to 60m. Upshot is that they can now perform the function intended.

    Affected units:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Akus Eporedoi
    Mercenary Akus Eporedoi
    Esseda
    Seguorina
    Komnetsamoi
    Londo Epatoi
    Ridanz
    Late Ridanz
    Mezenai
    Equites Scutari
    Equites Caetrati
    Celtiberian Bodyguard
    Celtiberian Lancer
    Ekualakoi
    Celtiberian Skirmisher Cavalry
    Equites Sabelli
    Garamantes Chariot
    Numidian Nobles
    Numidian Cavalry
    Maures Cavalry
    Garamantes Cavalry
    Hippakontistai
    Harmata Drepanephora
    Illyrioi Hippeis
    Harauvatish Asabara
    Asiatikoi Hippakontistai
    Armoured Indian Elephant
    Nizakahar Ayrudzi
    Indian Light Cavalry



    4) Faster cavalry

    Cavalry are too slow, unrealistically so. If you don't believe me, have some heavy cavalry try to catch fleeing infantry. Furthermore, light cavalry often cannot catch fleeing heavy cavalry. I've had a play with various multipliers on the move_speed_mod attribute, and found what I think is the right one. Heavy cavalry have had their speed increased by 25% and light cavalry (including Light, Missile and Skirmish) by 35%. This has had the happy side-effect of slightly beefing up the impact of charges, probably because more speed means more momentum means harder impact.

    Affected units:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Light, Missile or Skirmish (Speed x1.35)
    Akus Eporedoi
    Mercenary Akus Eporedoi
    Seguorina
    Komnetsamoi
    Londo Epatoi
    Ridanz
    Late Ridanz
    Marhoreidonez Aþaloi
    Aswiniai
    Aswiniai Late
    Getikoi Hippotoxotai
    Mezenai
    Equites Caetrati
    Caetranann Epones
    Celtiberian Lancer
    Celtiberian Skirmisher Cavalry
    Equites Sabelli
    Numidian Nobles
    Numidian Cavalry
    Maures Cavalry
    Garamantes Cavalry
    Nabatean Lancers
    Nabatean Horse Archers
    Hippeis
    Misthophoroi Hippeis
    Xystophoroi
    Hippakontistai
    Illyrioi Hippeis
    Katpatuka Asabara
    Harauvatish Asabara
    Asiatikoi Hippakontistai
    Asabaran-i Madaen
    Asiatikoi Hippeis
    Aspet Hetselazor
    Nizakahar Ayrudzi
    Indian Light Cavalry
    Indian Lancers
    Aursa Baexdzhyntae
    Sauromatae Fat Aexsdzhytae
    Daha Baexdzhyntae
    Shivatir-i Pahlavanig
    Duna Asya
    Assa Barai


    Heavy (Speed x1.25)
    Esseda
    Gallic General Bodyguard
    Donno Eporedoi
    Marcacoi
    Boii General Bodyguard
    Boii Donno Eporedoi
    Equites Scutari
    Caetrati
    Vobrim Epones
    Vobrim Epones (Recruit)
    Celtiberian Bodyguard
    Ekualakoi
    Camillan Equites
    Equites Consulares
    Parasim Libi-Ponnim
    HaParasim HaB'hurim
    Somrei HaMepaqed
    Numidian General Bodyguard
    Nabatean Royal Guard
    Hetairoi
    Hellenistic General Bodyguard
    Hellenistic General Bodyguard TEMP
    Early Baktrian Bodyguard
    Baktrioi Hippeis
    Baktrioi Hippotoxotai
    Eastern Early Bodyguard
    Khuveshavagan
    Ragon Sauromatae Uaezdaettae
    Sauromatae Uaezdaettae
    Pahlavan-i Zrehbaran
    Spahbade Pahlavanig
    Ysaninu Aysna
    Ysaninu Aysna - Recruitable



    5) Tighter formation for underarm lancers

    Not a big or material edit, so purely optional if people want to test this one out. I've tightened the formation for underarm lancers, which should improve their cohesion and thus the impact of their charge. No other units would really benefit much from this, though Ibrahim said he's looking at making all Roman and Hellenistic cavalry formations a bit tighter in the next release.

    Affected units:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Celtiberian Lancer
    HaParasim HaB'hurim
    Somrei HaMepaqed
    Nabatean Lancers
    Nabatean Royal Guard
    Xystophoroi
    Hetairoi
    Hellenistic General Bodyguard
    Hellenistic General Bodyguard TEMP
    Early Baktrian Bodyguard
    Baktrioi Hippeis
    Asabaran-i Madaen
    Asiatikoi Hippeis
    Eastern Early Bodyguard
    Khuveshavagan
    Ragon Sauromatae Uaezdaettae
    Sauromatae Uaezdaettae (Recruitable)
    Pahlavan-i Zrehbaran


    Try it out, and I'd appreciate any feedback people have on using in anger, as well as thoughts on anything else that could be tweaked in the EDU.
    Last edited by QuintusSertorius; 10-06-2014 at 18:38.
    It began on seven hills - an EB 1.1 Romani AAR with historical house-rules (now ceased)
    Heirs to Lysimachos - an EB 1.1 Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR with semi-historical houserules (now ceased)
    Philetairos' Gift - a second EB 1.1 Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR

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  2. #2
    Member Member geala's Avatar
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    Default Re: [Unofficial Hotfix] Functional inf/cav javelineers; improved spearmen, faster cav

    I started EB2 just yesterday using your mod and so have no experience with the original edu. While I cannot compare old and new I'm really satisfied with behavior of the modded units till now. Thank you. I hope there will be a method later to reduce javelin range without reducing the unit effectiveness because you cannot throw a javelin under real war conditions at 70 metres. Just a remark: saying that you have to extract the downloaded file is a bit misleading, at least for me because there was nothing to extract from the .php-file I downloaded. I just renamed it to export_descr_unit.txt.
    The queen commands and we'll obey
    Over the Hills and far away.
    (perhaps from an English Traditional, about 1700 AD)

    Drum, Kinder, seid lustig und allesamt bereit:
    Auf, Ansbach-Dragoner! Auf, Ansbach-Bayreuth!
    (later chorus -containing a wrong regimental name for the Bayreuth-Dragoner (DR Nr. 5) - of the "Hohenfriedberger Marsch", reminiscense of a battle in 1745 AD, to the music perhaps of an earlier cuirassier march)

  3. #3
    EBII Hod Carrier Member QuintusSertorius's Avatar
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    Default Re: [Unofficial Hotfix] Functional inf/cav javelineers; improved spearmen, faster cav

    Quote Originally Posted by geala View Post
    I started EB2 just yesterday using your mod and so have no experience with the original edu. While I cannot compare old and new I'm really satisfied with behavior of the modded units till now. Thank you. I hope there will be a method later to reduce javelin range without reducing the unit effectiveness because you cannot throw a javelin under real war conditions at 70 metres.
    Javelin skirmishing is complicated in M2TW. There's an interaction with skirmish range (currently set at 50m, I believe), whereby if it isn't a comfortable margin more, they won't throw (as seen in unmodded 2.0/2.01). If we reduce skirmishing range, skirmishers won't disengage from a charge fast enough to avoid getting caught, making skirmish mode completely useless. The AI always uses skirmish mode for it's skirmishers, so that would be an advantage to the human player who is able to turn it off. Furthermore, the running to gain momentum animation eats another 10m as they move towards their target. Which makes the actual throw 60m, and not all that unrealistic at all. Bear in mind the modern world record for throwing a specially-designed flight javelin is 90m.

    Indeed, it was trying to set "realistic" throwing ranges than neutered skirmishers in the first place. Because of the way that interacts (poorly) with the engine.

    Quote Originally Posted by geala View Post
    Just a remark: saying that you have to extract the downloaded file is a bit misleading, at least for me because there was nothing to extract from the .php-file I downloaded. I just renamed it to export_descr_unit.txt.
    The file is right there to extract; if you're getting a .php file, that's because of your browser settings.
    It began on seven hills - an EB 1.1 Romani AAR with historical house-rules (now ceased)
    Heirs to Lysimachos - an EB 1.1 Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR with semi-historical houserules (now ceased)
    Philetairos' Gift - a second EB 1.1 Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  4. #4
    Member Member geala's Avatar
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    Default Re: [Unofficial Hotfix] Functional inf/cav javelineers; improved spearmen, faster cav

    I got the ratio behind your changes and it's totally acceptable for dealing with the M2TW javelin problems. But you cannot compare the range of javelins from sports competitions to that on real battlefields. Soldiers were for the most not trained musclemen, sick, tired, hungry, exhausted, hemmed by the terrain and so on. Heavier javelins might have been effective at 20 to 30 metres. Lighter javelins with thongs perhaps up to 40 metres. I did never reach such distances in my throwings trials but our ancestors were surely more experienced and stronger on the average.

    Thanks for the tip with the browser, I should have a look at it.
    The queen commands and we'll obey
    Over the Hills and far away.
    (perhaps from an English Traditional, about 1700 AD)

    Drum, Kinder, seid lustig und allesamt bereit:
    Auf, Ansbach-Dragoner! Auf, Ansbach-Bayreuth!
    (later chorus -containing a wrong regimental name for the Bayreuth-Dragoner (DR Nr. 5) - of the "Hohenfriedberger Marsch", reminiscense of a battle in 1745 AD, to the music perhaps of an earlier cuirassier march)

  5. #5
    EBII Hod Carrier Member QuintusSertorius's Avatar
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    Default Re: [Unofficial Hotfix] Functional inf/cav javelineers; improved spearmen, faster cav

    Quote Originally Posted by geala View Post
    I got the ratio behind your changes and it's totally acceptable for dealing with the M2TW javelin problems. But you cannot compare the range of javelins from sports competitions to that on real battlefields. Soldiers were for the most not trained musclemen, sick, tired, hungry, exhausted, hemmed by the terrain and so on. Heavier javelins might have been effective at 20 to 30 metres. Lighter javelins with thongs perhaps up to 40 metres. I did never reach such distances in my throwings trials but our ancestors were surely more experienced and stronger on the average.
    You don't need to be a "trained muscleman" to throw well, just have practised a good deal. Which skirmishers of the day would have done, especially if they used the javelin to hunt, and thus to supplement their diet. Having to do something well in order to eat tends to focus the mind. Soldiers were only potentially sick, tired, hungry and exhausted on campaign, and then only on extended campaign a long way from home. Even then, that's why training would ameliorate the loss of effectiveness compared to ideal conditions. In amongst a hundred-odd men in a unit, there'd be men who could throw really well and those who couldn't. So I don't think the effective range of 60m (because they lose 10m running up) is that far off.

    Quote Originally Posted by geala View Post
    Thanks for the tip with the browser, I should have a look at it.
    It seems to be a common occurrence, I'll quote Ludens on the topic:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludens View Post
    That's the webpage redirecting to the [file]. I am guessing you have some sort of script- or pop-up blocker installed that prevents the redirect. Could you try left clicking on the link (as opposed to right clicking and then selecting "save as")? If that doesn't work, try another browser. And if that doesn't work, see if you can discover what piece of software is blocking the redirect.
    It began on seven hills - an EB 1.1 Romani AAR with historical house-rules (now ceased)
    Heirs to Lysimachos - an EB 1.1 Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR with semi-historical houserules (now ceased)
    Philetairos' Gift - a second EB 1.1 Epeiros-as-Pergamon AAR


  6. #6

    Default Re: [Unofficial Hotfix] Functional inf/cav javelineers; improved spearmen, faster cav

    Quote Originally Posted by geala View Post
    Heavier javelins might have been effective at 20 to 30 metres. Lighter javelins with thongs perhaps
    up to 40 metres. I did never reach such distances in my throwings trials but our ancestors were surely more experienced and
    stronger on the average.
    Roman legionaries would throw pila before charging when enemies were close - perhaps as close as 15m.
    There is no way to replicate this in the TW engine that I know, so the best practice in my opinion is to seek to emulate the results rather than the actual number of meters. A unit should be able to shoot off a volley of javelins into another charging infantry and still have time to initiate their own charge.

    If you wanted to actually re-enact an ancient battle in a TW engine it would be extremely difficult. For instance, it appears that close combat was fought in short bursts followed by disengagement and re-engagement rather than a sustained fight that took hours. The TW engine was built to simulate cinematic combat, not that, and the best you can hope for, I think, is to get believable results (low lethality of engagement, heavy use of skirmishing) rather than getting all the details correct.
    Last edited by mmiki; 10-06-2014 at 16:22. Reason: formatting
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  7. #7
    Professional Lurker Member Bava's Avatar
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    Default Re: [Unofficial Hotfix] Functional inf/cav javelineers; improved spearmen, faster cav

    Heavier javelins might have been effective at 20 to 30 metres. Lighter javelins with thongs perhaps up to 40 metres. I did never reach such distances in my throwings trials but our ancestors were surely more experienced and stronger on the average.
    Have you tried it with an amentum? If not, try it again with one ;)
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