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Thread: Columbus Day Protests
Are a way for middle class white people to feel better about themselves.
Never in my life have I been bludgeoned by so much myopic indignation. Never in my life has the noble savage myth been more pervase.
Never in my life have I been bludgeoned by so much myopic indignation. Never in my life has the noble savage myth been more pervase.
Originally Posted by Strike For The South:
Are a way for middle class white people to feel better about themselves.
Never in my life have I been bludgeoned by so much myopic indignation. Never in my life has the noble savage myth been more pervase.
And yet, middle class white people ostracize me when I protest Saint Patrick's Day for the genocide of all of those snakes. ANIMAL JUSTICE IS STILL JUSTICE!Are a way for middle class white people to feel better about themselves.
Never in my life have I been bludgeoned by so much myopic indignation. Never in my life has the noble savage myth been more pervase.
Columbus "discovered" America much in the same way that asteroid discovered dinosaur earth...
Anyway, who cares about Columbus when everyone knows the first Europeans over there were the OBVIOUSLY superior vikings
Anyway, who cares about Columbus when everyone knows the first Europeans over there were the OBVIOUSLY superior vikings
Originally Posted by Strike For The South:
Are a way for middle class white people to feel better about themselves.
Never in my life have I been bludgeoned by so much myopic indignation. Never in my life has the noble savage myth been more pervase.
But their great-great-grandfather was half-Cherokee!Are a way for middle class white people to feel better about themselves.
Never in my life have I been bludgeoned by so much myopic indignation. Never in my life has the noble savage myth been more pervase.
Surely as a key event in shaping the modern America and even the wider world it has nothing to do with whether the savages were more-or-less noble.
Here is Allen West's take on Columbus day. The disease that created the havoc across the continents was most likely accidentally brought by Spanish explorers directly after Columbus. Columbus affected only a small area directly. When explorers after them came, with pigs for food on their treks, they still noted large, healthy civilizations. They trekked deep into the continent and brought disease and disease bearing animals with them, but not intentionally. Judge Columbus how you will for his own actions, but they only directly affected very small populations. His motives in sailing West, which led to the discovery of the Americas for Europe was not guided by evil intentions, and the large scale horror that came from it (Anywhere from 60-90% of the population of both continents massacred by disease) was wholly unintentional. (which is not to say that there were not evil things done intentionally, but they were executed by both sides. We just hate the Spanish because they were more effective at imposing their will.)
That is not what Columbus day is about though. It is about remembering something that had a profound effect on our country and helped to shape it into what it is - for good or bad.
That is not what Columbus day is about though. It is about remembering something that had a profound effect on our country and helped to shape it into what it is - for good or bad.
For all the efforts dedicated to celebrating indigenous peoples, I note a distinct paucity of effort to give them back all the land....
So, practice what you preach or accept the verdict of history and move forward. The rest is self-aggrandizing persiflage.
So, practice what you preach or accept the verdict of history and move forward. The rest is self-aggrandizing persiflage.
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube:
Whether you find it a pithy thing to protest or not, the details of what Columbus did are pretty heinous. Entire populations were blatantly massacred or worked to death in nothing short of a holocaust, and that's still completely ignored by most early level history books. Just another thing for indignant middle-class white people to re-learn (or refuse to re-learn) in college after having been lied to their entire childhoods.
Check your white indignation, nobody on the rez thinks its a laughing matter or overblown political correctness. Its as bad as having a Hitler Day.
Columbus did little of the actions you rightly decry. He may well have, had he been given the opportunity, but his voyages were no more than moderately successful and he did more court squabbling than anything else. He did capture and enslave one batch of Tainos, over a third of whom died on their trip to Spain. Columbus was certainly no paragon of virtue among the Spanish explorer/conquerors. Whether you find it a pithy thing to protest or not, the details of what Columbus did are pretty heinous. Entire populations were blatantly massacred or worked to death in nothing short of a holocaust, and that's still completely ignored by most early level history books. Just another thing for indignant middle-class white people to re-learn (or refuse to re-learn) in college after having been lied to their entire childhoods.
Check your white indignation, nobody on the rez thinks its a laughing matter or overblown political correctness. Its as bad as having a Hitler Day.
Now, the early Spanish conquerors DID wipe out Caribees almost on sight as they were both cannibals and fiercely territorial. Other populations, notably males from the Colombian and Peruvian areas were worked to death in mines under deplorable conditions closely analogous to the treatment of Soviet gulag detainees.
The greatest die-off was purely accidental as the death rate from the virgin field epidemics of measles, influenza and the like. Only the die off on Hispaniola (swine flu from expedition pigs landed with the wintering over group) can be laid at Columbus' feet. It is estimated that more than half of the pre-Columbian population of the Americas died in the decades following the Spanish incursions into Mexico, Panama, and Peru.
But you should also blame that die off for slavery in the New World as well. Following the death of so many natives during this prolonged pandemic, the Spanish found themselves short of workers for their mines and for the plantations some sought to develop on the islands and on the Spanish Main. This was even more true of Portugal's colonies in Brazil.
Columbus Day is almost like having a - Veterans' Day? 
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube:
A minor distinction. He told them where to go, what was there, and what to do with it.
Even if we assume that these were cultural norms of the time, they're still bigoted norms that resulted in the actual violent elimination of entire peoples. Some of whom are still around, living in poverty on shitty reservations because of broken treaties and the legacy of Columbus' discovery. The only reasons to defend it are petty as all hell. Sure, most of the major tribes have taken payoffs recently enough, but some of them have never taken a dime and are still penalized for it.
Like this one.
I'd like the reservation system to end -- it always has been an inherently abusive process even when not corruptly administered -- and to have native Americans simply be American citizens.A minor distinction. He told them where to go, what was there, and what to do with it.
Even if we assume that these were cultural norms of the time, they're still bigoted norms that resulted in the actual violent elimination of entire peoples. Some of whom are still around, living in poverty on shitty reservations because of broken treaties and the legacy of Columbus' discovery. The only reasons to defend it are petty as all hell. Sure, most of the major tribes have taken payoffs recently enough, but some of them have never taken a dime and are still penalized for it.
Like this one.
You are aware of the difficulties in applying modern notions of equality, ethics, and morality to that time period, yes? I am hardly an apologist for what happened, but neither am I willing to try to somehow revert ownership back to the first peoples.
I have never had a problem with Ohio, and I don't intend to start now. Whether the people there are migrants or indigenous, they all get the same respect from me. Georgia? Well that's another story.
The usual suspect has a little special on the topic:
Youtube Video
How convenient.
I expect accusations of liberal media bias now.
Youtube Video
How convenient.
I expect accusations of liberal media bias now.
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube:
Of course I am. Its silly to think about any of it in grand political terms, whether it be applying modern ethics to the past or thoughts of reparations (lots of tribes don't want your reparations, and how would you end the reservation system for tribes that still dispute broken treaties from over 100 years ago?). Columbus day is still offensive, though. And the OP is an ignorant troll, born either of boredom or stupidity (and let's face it, we all know it was boredom).
Repatriations? Why? What legal ground do they have to stand on to demand money? I mean maybe the broken treaties. The Amerindians were just as brutal to each other as the white man.Of course I am. Its silly to think about any of it in grand political terms, whether it be applying modern ethics to the past or thoughts of reparations (lots of tribes don't want your reparations, and how would you end the reservation system for tribes that still dispute broken treaties from over 100 years ago?). Columbus day is still offensive, though. And the OP is an ignorant troll, born either of boredom or stupidity (and let's face it, we all know it was boredom).
Originally Posted by Montmorency:
Columbus Day is almost like having a - Veterans' Day?
Another utterly useless day.Columbus Day is almost like having a - Veterans' Day?
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh:
Columbus did little of the actions you rightly decry. He may well have, had he been given the opportunity, but his voyages were no more than moderately successful and he did more court squabbling than anything else. He did capture and enslave one batch of Tainos, over a third of whom died on their trip to Spain. Columbus was certainly no paragon of virtue among the Spanish explorer/conquerors.
Now, the early Spanish conquerors DID wipe out Caribees almost on sight as they were both cannibals and fiercely territorial. Other populations, notably males from the Colombian and Peruvian areas were worked to death in mines under deplorable conditions closely analogous to the treatment of Soviet gulag detainees.
The greatest die-off was purely accidental as the death rate from the virgin field epidemics of measles, influenza and the like. Only the die off on Hispaniola (swine flu from expedition pigs landed with the wintering over group) can be laid at Columbus' feet. It is estimated that more than half of the pre-Columbian population of the Americas died in the decades following the Spanish incursions into Mexico, Panama, and Peru.
But you should also blame that die off for slavery in the New World as well. Following the death of so many natives during this prolonged pandemic, the Spanish found themselves short of workers for their mines and for the plantations some sought to develop on the islands and on the Spanish Main. This was even more true of Portugal's colonies in Brazil.
Something I've wondered, as I've read articles bigging up the British side but I'm not entirely trusting of them, is what effect the Revolution had on relations between European settlers and natives. I've read that Britain was in favour of leaving the plains to the natives and limiting expansion, but was this really so, and did the Patriots have a different view?Columbus did little of the actions you rightly decry. He may well have, had he been given the opportunity, but his voyages were no more than moderately successful and he did more court squabbling than anything else. He did capture and enslave one batch of Tainos, over a third of whom died on their trip to Spain. Columbus was certainly no paragon of virtue among the Spanish explorer/conquerors.
Now, the early Spanish conquerors DID wipe out Caribees almost on sight as they were both cannibals and fiercely territorial. Other populations, notably males from the Colombian and Peruvian areas were worked to death in mines under deplorable conditions closely analogous to the treatment of Soviet gulag detainees.
The greatest die-off was purely accidental as the death rate from the virgin field epidemics of measles, influenza and the like. Only the die off on Hispaniola (swine flu from expedition pigs landed with the wintering over group) can be laid at Columbus' feet. It is estimated that more than half of the pre-Columbian population of the Americas died in the decades following the Spanish incursions into Mexico, Panama, and Peru.
But you should also blame that die off for slavery in the New World as well. Following the death of so many natives during this prolonged pandemic, the Spanish found themselves short of workers for their mines and for the plantations some sought to develop on the islands and on the Spanish Main. This was even more true of Portugal's colonies in Brazil.
Swine Flu that struck the world in 1918-1919 started in China. It killed c. 10-30 million people globally.
I feel the sudden indignation against the Chinese for unleashing this plague upon us!!!
I feel the sudden indignation against the Chinese for unleashing this plague upon us!!!
Look, I am a tribal member and this does mean something to me but all the fuss about Columbus Day is a waste of time. It only celebrates the first known European to discover the place.
I am sure its origins are racist but big deal. Almost everything is one way or the other.
I get much more bent out of shape over Andy Jackson and Abe Lincoln and his generals as that was a bit more recent, clearly corrupt and deliberate murder.
Of course some people like to get upset and blame all their problems on others. Nothing new there. But some tribes do have reason to hate whites and maybe all of us do if we want to hold grudges over what has happened over the last 500 years or so. But it is not really productive.
As for Indian grievances against the US government they are legion. I don’t think there is a treaty they have not broken.
The tribes don’t want to give up tribal lands. That has always been a way of cheating them and something that has been pushed for since the country was founded. Jackson made his money selling Indian Lands in Tennessee and Mississippi.
There are abuses on both sides and the BIA is still about the most corrupt agency in government but it is getting more competition for that title lately.
Any way this is just more of people wanting to play victims and raise a fuss about things that don’t matter, just like sports team names. They should be putting up a fight over taxes and treaty rights and not this.
I am sure its origins are racist but big deal. Almost everything is one way or the other.
I get much more bent out of shape over Andy Jackson and Abe Lincoln and his generals as that was a bit more recent, clearly corrupt and deliberate murder.
Of course some people like to get upset and blame all their problems on others. Nothing new there. But some tribes do have reason to hate whites and maybe all of us do if we want to hold grudges over what has happened over the last 500 years or so. But it is not really productive.
As for Indian grievances against the US government they are legion. I don’t think there is a treaty they have not broken.
The tribes don’t want to give up tribal lands. That has always been a way of cheating them and something that has been pushed for since the country was founded. Jackson made his money selling Indian Lands in Tennessee and Mississippi.
There are abuses on both sides and the BIA is still about the most corrupt agency in government but it is getting more competition for that title lately.
Any way this is just more of people wanting to play victims and raise a fuss about things that don’t matter, just like sports team names. They should be putting up a fight over taxes and treaty rights and not this.
Originally Posted by Fisherking:
Look, I am a tribal member and this does mean something to me but all the fuss about Columbus Day is a waste of time. It only celebrates the first known European to discover the place.
I am sure its origins are racist but big deal. Almost everything is one way or the other.
I get much more bent out of shape over Andy Jackson and Abe Lincoln and his generals as that was a bit more recent, clearly corrupt and deliberate murder.
Of course some people like to get upset and blame all their problems on others. Nothing new there. But some tribes do have reason to hate whites and maybe all of us do if we want to hold grudges over what has happened over the last 500 years or so. But it is not really productive.
As for Indian grievances against the US government they are legion. I don’t think there is a treaty they have not broken.
The tribes don’t want to give up tribal lands. That has always been a way of cheating them and something that has been pushed for since the country was founded. Jackson made his money selling Indian Lands in Tennessee and Mississippi.
There are abuses on both sides and the BIA is still about the most corrupt agency in government but it is getting more competition for that title lately.
Any way this is just more of people wanting to play victims and raise a fuss about things that don’t matter, just like sports team names. They should be putting up a fight over taxes and treaty rights and not this.
Was there a history of good relations before Andrew Jackson? I've read good things about the intentions of the British government before the revolution but we weren't put to the test, and I don't know how apt we were to keep agreements. I also don't know if there was any change in relations with the regime change in 1776, or whether the newly independent US kept good relations with the native Americans until later.Look, I am a tribal member and this does mean something to me but all the fuss about Columbus Day is a waste of time. It only celebrates the first known European to discover the place.
I am sure its origins are racist but big deal. Almost everything is one way or the other.
I get much more bent out of shape over Andy Jackson and Abe Lincoln and his generals as that was a bit more recent, clearly corrupt and deliberate murder.
Of course some people like to get upset and blame all their problems on others. Nothing new there. But some tribes do have reason to hate whites and maybe all of us do if we want to hold grudges over what has happened over the last 500 years or so. But it is not really productive.
As for Indian grievances against the US government they are legion. I don’t think there is a treaty they have not broken.
The tribes don’t want to give up tribal lands. That has always been a way of cheating them and something that has been pushed for since the country was founded. Jackson made his money selling Indian Lands in Tennessee and Mississippi.
There are abuses on both sides and the BIA is still about the most corrupt agency in government but it is getting more competition for that title lately.
Any way this is just more of people wanting to play victims and raise a fuss about things that don’t matter, just like sports team names. They should be putting up a fight over taxes and treaty rights and not this.
Originally Posted by Pannonian:
Was there a history of good relations before Andrew Jackson? I've read good things about the intentions of the British government before the revolution but we weren't put to the test, and I don't know how apt we were to keep agreements. I also don't know if there was any change in relations with the regime change in 1776, or whether the newly independent US kept good relations with the native Americans until later.
Most of the Great Lakes Tribes stayed loyal to the crown during the war. Some tribes did side with the Americans but after the war all were treated badly.Was there a history of good relations before Andrew Jackson? I've read good things about the intentions of the British government before the revolution but we weren't put to the test, and I don't know how apt we were to keep agreements. I also don't know if there was any change in relations with the regime change in 1776, or whether the newly independent US kept good relations with the native Americans until later.
Jackson was a land speculator and sold a lot of lands belonging to the Chickasaw who had sided with the US. He was also helped in the Red Sticks War and the War of 1812 by the Choctaw, who had scouted for Washington and Green and even Wayne. Afterward he negotiated treaties with these tribes and swindled them out of a lot of land. Then as President he removed the 5 major southern tribes to Indian Territory (Oklahoma) starting in 1832. It is little wonder those tribes sided with the CSA during the War Between the States.
The British were not very likely to have abided by the treaties they made in the Old North West and don’t have the best record in treatment of native peoples in Canada but the US government was worse. The government always view the tribes more adversarial, regardless of what the agents intent was. Policies were to negotiate with the strong and wipe out the weak, for the most part.
Abe Lincoln managed to provoke almost every tribe west of the Mississippi into war during his war. Many lasted 20 year or so, with short peace settlements here or there. After the Army finished with the south they moved their total war policies to the tribes in the west. The last Indian War ended in 1929.
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk:
Swine Flu that struck the world in 1918-1919 started in China. It killed c. 10-30 million people globally.
I feel the sudden indignation against the Chinese for unleashing this plague upon us!!!
If the Chinese had moved in to colonize the land of the decimated peoples, then you would have good reason to feel indignant.Swine Flu that struck the world in 1918-1919 started in China. It killed c. 10-30 million people globally.
I feel the sudden indignation against the Chinese for unleashing this plague upon us!!!
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr:
If the Chinese had moved in to colonize the land of the decimated peoples, then you would have good reason to feel indignant.
Have you never been to Chinatown? Sneaky buggers are just doing it slowly...If the Chinese had moved in to colonize the land of the decimated peoples, then you would have good reason to feel indignant.
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk:
Have you never been to Chinatown? Sneaky buggers are just doing it slowly...
One chop suey at a time...Have you never been to Chinatown? Sneaky buggers are just doing it slowly...
I dont get why the usa bothers to honour the guy who discovered the carrbbean with a day.
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh:
I'd like the reservation system to end -- it always has been an inherently abusive process even when not corruptly administered -- and to have native Americans simply be American citizens.
As abusive as the reservation system has been, the end of the reservations would mean the end of tribal governments and what little autonomy American Indians possess. I can't speak for American Indians but I don't think very many of them would want that.I'd like the reservation system to end -- it always has been an inherently abusive process even when not corruptly administered -- and to have native Americans simply be American citizens.
Originally Posted by Tuuvi:
As abusive as the reservation system has been, the end of the reservations would mean the end of tribal governments and what little autonomy American Indians possess. I can't speak for American Indians but I don't think very many of them would want that.
I suspect you are correct.As abusive as the reservation system has been, the end of the reservations would mean the end of tribal governments and what little autonomy American Indians possess. I can't speak for American Indians but I don't think very many of them would want that.
Originally Posted by Fisherking:
As for Indian grievances against the US government they are legion. I don’t think there is a treaty they have not broken.
Don't forget that both sides have completely disregarded treaty. An example close to home: Menominee. Our treaty with them came about because they said they were afraid that if they became US citizens that their way of life would be ruined. They thought that the way white and black people in America lived was bad for the earth, and that men should live by what we now-adays would deem far more primitive means. They convinced us to sign that treaty with them so that they could live in their traditional shelters, dress and hunt traditionally, etc, etc. That is the whole reason they were not just made US citizens. Their complaint, and the reason they gave for not wanting to be US citizens was all about living traditionally and preserving their way of life as a snap shot in time so as to live in harmony with the earth and interfere with nature as little as possible.As for Indian grievances against the US government they are legion. I don’t think there is a treaty they have not broken.
Well, I have been to their ginormous lumber mill, and driven along their paved roads, and seen their stores, and schools, and modern houses, and cars, and snowmobiles and seen them deliberately pollute our rivers. They have broken the treaty in 100 million ways. The deal was that they could remain independent as long as they lived in a traditional way. If they are not going to live in a traditional way, then they should just become a county in Wisconsin like everyone else. They are fighting a little war of wills with us, which includes them deliberately poisoning Wisconsin waterways, which if we were to treat them like an independent country would be considered sabotage and an act of war.
Seriously, it is time to move on. Should Bretons try to sue for independence against France? They got fricked over, but it happened a long time ago - move on. What good will it do? You don't get anywhere by living in the past. You need to embrace and live in the now, or you are just gonna shoot yourself in the foot. I think a lot of NAs don't realize that. It reminds me of the IRA and all the Irish who are trying to set right wrongs that were done to other people who lived in their land a long time ago, and are just creating more and more wrongs for themselves and those around them. Or my Jewish brethren who want to go over and die somewhere in the desert sands in the Middle East to reclaim what they think is theirs because it used to belong to their anscenstors. Why die for something that was never yours (it belonging to your anscestors does not make it yours), when you could let go of that and embrace the now and build something for your children?
To take it back to Native Americans, they stole that land from the people who originally inhabited it and massacred them all. The only right they had to the land was the right of conquest, same as European conquers. We used to live in a world of race and nations, but today we have the option to live in a world of ideas. When you decide where you and other people belong based on race, it only leads to trouble. Giving your alliegence to beliefs, ethics, and ideas serves you and the entire world better. The United States has broken free from the world of race more than any country on earth, but we are still bogged down by all these factions who want to define someone's right to be somewhere by a percentage of their DNA. That is serious Hitler shit. A country in a country never works. The just keeps everyone weaker. People need to stop fighting for something they have never had and embrace the beauty of what is right in front of them.
Originally Posted by :
Don't forget that both sides have completely disregarded treaty. An example close to home: Menominee. Our treaty with them came about because they said they were afraid that if they became US citizens that their way of life would be ruined. They thought that the way white and black people in America lived was bad for the earth, and that men should live by what we now-adays would deem far more primitive means. They convinced us to sign that treaty with them so that they could live in their traditional shelters, dress and hunt traditionally, etc, etc. That is the whole reason they were not just made US citizens. Their complaint, and the reason they gave for not wanting to be US citizens was all about living traditionally and preserving their way of life as a snap shot in time so as to live in harmony with the earth and interfere with nature as little as possible.
Is that why they asked the US govt to teach them agriculture in some of their first treaties? Don't forget that both sides have completely disregarded treaty. An example close to home: Menominee. Our treaty with them came about because they said they were afraid that if they became US citizens that their way of life would be ruined. They thought that the way white and black people in America lived was bad for the earth, and that men should live by what we now-adays would deem far more primitive means. They convinced us to sign that treaty with them so that they could live in their traditional shelters, dress and hunt traditionally, etc, etc. That is the whole reason they were not just made US citizens. Their complaint, and the reason they gave for not wanting to be US citizens was all about living traditionally and preserving their way of life as a snap shot in time so as to live in harmony with the earth and interfere with nature as little as possible.
The fact that this monster gets a national holiday is a disgrace.
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/columbus_day
Whether or not his discovery led to the wide spread abuse of the natives is irrelevant since he not only kick-started the abuse personally but was so bad the Spanish Crown, [sarcasm] that paragon of virtue [/sarcasm], actually replaced him after news of his Tyranny reached the court...
There were plenty of other explorers who could be celebrated in his stead for example Amerigo Vespucci - the man America is named after...
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/columbus_day
Whether or not his discovery led to the wide spread abuse of the natives is irrelevant since he not only kick-started the abuse personally but was so bad the Spanish Crown, [sarcasm] that paragon of virtue [/sarcasm], actually replaced him after news of his Tyranny reached the court...
There were plenty of other explorers who could be celebrated in his stead for example Amerigo Vespucci - the man America is named after...
Originally Posted by Pannonian:
Something I've wondered, as I've read articles bigging up the British side but I'm not entirely trusting of them, is what effect the Revolution had on relations between European settlers and natives. I've read that Britain was in favour of leaving the plains to the natives and limiting expansion, but was this really so, and did the Patriots have a different view?
The patriots did have a different view. One of aggressive expansion. The British had a clear policy toward new colonizing efforts. One aimed at the idea of, even if they fell short in practice, peaceful coexistence. Colonial magistrates were all supposed to negotiate treaties with native tribes before founding new settlements. I've read of several instances of Governors being officially rebuked by the crown for not following treaties with the tribes or not properly making new ones. But in many of those cases the Governors were in a position of either abandoning the settlers who broke the treaty (in which case they would been attacked) or supporting them. The native were regarded lowly by most Europeans. The crown regarded them as being worth keeping around to turn into Englishmen.Something I've wondered, as I've read articles bigging up the British side but I'm not entirely trusting of them, is what effect the Revolution had on relations between European settlers and natives. I've read that Britain was in favour of leaving the plains to the natives and limiting expansion, but was this really so, and did the Patriots have a different view?
And even today there is a pervasive negative attitude toward natives among the European majority in North America.
Originally Posted by Sir Moody:
There were plenty of other explorers who could be celebrated in his stead for example Amerigo Vespucci - the man America is named after...
Irony of history. Didn't discover Americas, wasn't even that great of an explorer or a cartographer, but the continents were named after him. There were plenty of other explorers who could be celebrated in his stead for example Amerigo Vespucci - the man America is named after...
Columbus was a man of his time. If we tried to forget everyone of questionable morality by modern standards, our history books would become nearly empty.
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