I am arguing a position that is the true orthodox view of the Godhead. Trinitarianism where introduced later in conjunction with the excommunication of Arius. My position is that of subordinationism which were the orthodox view at the time and the view of the early church before the church fathers fused Christianity with Hellenism. I might add that this was also before the canonization of the scriptures. We are not arguing sola scriptura here, and I will not argue two major points. There is a point in mentioning this because it is said that the contenders of Arius couldn’t refute Arius scripturally. Arius contended that Jesus Christ was a created being (as in, created at some point of time, before which he did not exist).
I am arguing a Tritherian God united in the attributes of perfection, each having the fullness of truth, knowledge, charity, power, justice, judgement, mercy and faith. They think, act and speak alike in all things but are still separate and distinct entities. The oneness of the Godhead is the same unity that should be found among the saints (John 17:3). There is an ontological division and a division of nature between the members of the godhead and that is what I shall argue here. I am not arguing the Unitarian position, but that of Subordinationism.
I will argue using the scriptures that the Trinitarians use when they argue their position and thereby sneakily bake into my opening statement a little bit of a rebuttal.
Isaiah 43:10-11 (KJV) is just such a scripture.Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he; before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
At first it looks as if Jehovah declares exactly what the Trinitarians claim. There is only one ontologically God, there is no other and neither will there be one later. Making such arguments is depriving scriptures like this of its context. It says that beside me there is no saviour, which to a Trinitarian plainly says that God is also the saviour. Using this scripture with that argument is overstepping its context. What is Isaiah arguing here?
As with many of his fellow prophets, Isaiah is speaking out against idol worship in and surrounding ancient Israel.
I would contend that all scriptures in the Old Testament that are arguing this, is not depriving the possibility of other true Gods or saviours. They are arguing against specific groups of idol worship and are using a well-known technique in ancient and modern texts, namely that of using negative phrases.
The clue is the word formed. It is speaking about making idols.
This is the context – as the Old Testament will use the phrase god and gods and saviours about entities other than Jehovah in other places in the Bible. Angels are referred to as divinities or gods and Israelites are referred to as saviours using the same word as in Isaiah 43:11.
I would have liked to follow up with John 10:31-38, but I can already tell that this will be a long opening statement.
So I’ll turn to the more known scriptures on this subject.
Hebrews 1:1-3 (KJV)God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
What is interesting here is that Paul is making a clear distinction between the Father and the Son ontologically.
God (the Father) who spoke to us by the prophets anciently has spoken to us by the Son in this time (Paul’s time) The Son being appointed heir and by the Son, God made the worlds.
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
This is crucial. The Son is the express image of God, meaning he is a copy of God in all aspects. The greek word used here is charaktēr, which means an exact copy. It is irrefutable.
Paul teaches that Jesus Christ is a god ontologically different from GOD the Father, as a twin is different from his sibling.
But, but you might interject. Paul speaks of ‘one God only’ in other places. Yes he does. Particularly in Ephesians 4 and Corinthians 8. Let’s read one of them.
1. Corinthians 8:4-6 (KJV)As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Paul is identifying the one God here, which is the Father. This is biblical monotheism. Paul is telling us that there is one Supreme Being, identified as GOD in the ultimate sense of that word, and that is the Father. To say that this verse testifies that there is only one god and Jesus therefore is only Lord, is misrepresenting this verse. Especially in light of Hebrews. It does not claim that there are no other gods. It states that there is no other being sharing his essence as God. He is distinct from other gods ontologically.
Finally, the one verse Trinitarians like to quote:
John 1:1 (KJV)In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
The debate around this verse is the question of the Word being God or a god.
If he was GOD then he was the God he was with, which I don’t think Trinitarians believe. Moreover, I don’t think Rhyf makes that claim (modalism). The text says he is either God or a god.
Nevertheless, he is with God.
Therefore, the text is clearly stating that he is a separate god. If he is not a separate god, he is the same God and we are still trying to figure out which god he is with.
You might say he is with the father, but that is not what this text is stating. John is not using distinctions like father/son. He is using the word Theos. But John is using a distinction between them. He is using ton Theon and Theos. There is an article there that is not translated. It should read the Word was with The God and the word was god. You can interpret Theos as either God or a god. Whoever wrote John made the distinction clear and that is significant. He is clearly separating the two as distinct entities.
I therefore conclude that God and Jesus Christ is two separate beings, both entitled to be called a god. One is the original, not formed nor copied from any other gods. He is the original, but Jesus is a replica of the original, embodied with the full power of godhood (Col 2:9), but separate nonetheless.
He is however subordinate as John further explains:
John 20:17 (KJV)
Jesus to Mary Magdalene: …I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 14:28 (KJV)
…I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
John 10:29 (KJV)
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all.
The Trinity
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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
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