The Trinity

[Hax]

y'all should learn Koine Greek, Biblical Hebrew, and Palestinian Aramaic before quoting the Bible.

maybe the translation doesn't work​

[Sigurd]

y'all should learn Koine Greek, Biblical Hebrew, and Palestinian Aramaic before quoting the Bible.

maybe the translation doesn't work​

If you disagree with my understanding. State the particulars.

[Hax]

No it's just that -- have you ever considered the fact that it's kind of weird that there are really specific points being made (possibly the modern-day equivalent of the supposed "angels dancing on the head of a pin"-debate) but that we're all completely dependent on translations?

It's like some guy in Korea writing about the ideas brought forth by Mark Twain while relying on a Russian translation, and that times a hundred. How is it actually possible to know what the people writing the Bible thought or meant, because we're practically reliant on translated commentary upon translated commentary (it's totally the same with Biblical and Quranic studies, by the way).

[Sigurd]

No it's just that -- have you ever considered the fact that it's kind of weird that there are really specific points being made (possibly the modern-day equivalent of the supposed "angels dancing on the head of a pin"-debate) but that we're all completely dependent on translations?

It's like some guy in Korea writing about the ideas brought forth by Mark Twain while relying on a Russian translation, and that times a hundred. How is it actually possible to know what the people writing the Bible thought or meant, because we're practically reliant on translated commentary upon translated commentary (it's totally the same with Biblical and Quranic studies, by the way).

Exactly... but that is the debate on sola scriptura which we wont do here, all though it is related.. as in begging the question to an authoritative record.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Sigurd, you take an interesting position. I wasn't quite sure what your views were, and had been expecting perhaps the more modern non-Trinitarian views. Would it be accurate to say that our positions can be summed up something along the lines of:

Rhyfelwyr:
1. One essence/nature with one set of attributes, encapsulated fully in three distinct persons.
2. All three persons are co-equal and co-eternal.
Sigurd:
1. Three separate essences/natures which share the same attributes, each encapsulated in three distinct persons.
2. The Son and Holy Spirit are subordinate to the Father, and were created by him.

y'all should learn Koine Greek, Biblical Hebrew, and Palestinian Aramaic before quoting the Bible.

maybe the translation doesn't work​

I think that studying the linguistic arguments surrounding any contested translations is a more practical approach, and good enough for the purpose.

[Sigurd]

Sigurd, you take an interesting position. I wasn't quite sure what your views were, and had been expecting perhaps the more modern non-Trinitarian views. Would it be accurate to say that our positions can be summed up something along the lines of:

Rhyfelwyr:
1. One essence/nature with one set of attributes, encapsulated fully in three distinct persons.
2. All three persons are co-equal and co-eternal.
Sigurd:
1. Three separate essences/natures which share the same attributes, each encapsulated in three distinct persons.
2. The Son and Holy Spirit are subordinate to the Father, and were created by him.

The Son is the only begotten, but obviously he partook in the creation. If The Son is a created being, he would have been the first of all created beings.
You say: One essence/nature with one set of attributes, encapsulated fully in three distinct persons. It is hard to interpret that as anything other than three separate entities.

[Rhyfelwyr]

The Son is the only begotten, but obviously he partook in the creation. If The Son is a created being, he would have been the first of all created beings.
You say: One essence/nature with one set of attributes, encapsulated fully in three distinct persons. It is hard to interpret that as anything other than three separate entities.

The importance difference between us here is surely that whereas you say that Father, Son and Holy Spirit each have their own separate essence/nature, I would say that they all share the same one. In my system, the one essence/nature of God is fully and indivisibly present in each of them. In yours, there are three separate Godly essences/natures, one in each of them. Isn't that what makes your take polytheistic, and mine monotheistic?

I'm currently preparing a reply to your main response...

[Sigurd]

The importance difference between us here is surely that whereas you say that Father, Son and Holy Spirit each have their own separate essence/nature, I would say that they all share the same one. In my system, the one essence/nature of God is fully and indivisibly present in each of them. In yours, there are three separate Godly essences/natures, one in each of them. Isn't that what makes your take polytheistic, and mine monotheistic?

I'm currently preparing a reply to your main response...

It is not polytheistic in the sense that one recognizes the Father as GOD and Christ as subordinate. We worship the same God as he said to Magdalene, your God and mine. The Bible has no problem with identifying other beings as gods. It doesn't make the ancient religion of Israel and Judah any less monotheistic to recognize the divinity of angels and whatnot calling them god.
Genesis uses a specific wording for God which I kinda wanted to present to Vincent as he brought Genesis to the table.
Jehovah is not the word used for God, but Elohim, which is a plural form of God, suggesting more than one god participating in the creation. Does it not state: let us make man in our image?
And it is the same word as used in Psalm 82:6 which is the verse Christ quotes in John 10:34; Ye are Gods (’ănî- ’ā-mar-tî ’ĕ-lō-hîm) compare to Genesis 1:1;
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth (bə-rê-šîṯ bā-rā ’ĕ-lō-hîm;’êṯ haš-šā-ma-yim wə-’êṯ hā-’ā-reṣ.)

[Papewaio]

This is all interesting but who created God?

Or did nothing exist before Him and then he sprung into being whole?

[Hax]

And it is the same word as used in Psalm 82:6 which is the verse Christ quotes in John 10:34; Ye are Gods (’ănî- ’ā-mar-tî ’ĕ-lō-hîm) compare to Genesis 1:1;
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth (bə-rê-šîṯ bā-rā ’ĕ-lō-hîm;’êṯ haš-šā-ma-yim wə-’êṯ hā-’ā-reṣ.)