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    Dragonslayer Emeritus Senior Member Sigurd's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Trinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent Butler View Post
    He said he has the keys of hell and of death (Revelation 1). Note verse nine says that Christ descended first, then ascended up to heaven. How could he ascend after descending unless he had resurrected? That occurred during the three days in the tomb. Matthew 12:40 said that Christ must be three days in the heart of the earth. Praise God, he is not there now, because if the resurrection had not occurred, our faith would be in vain (1 Corinthians 15:14, 17).
    From my understanding of scripture, the dead who died before Christ's death went to a place called Abraham's bosom, which was in the earth, though I am not saying that Christ went there, I believe he actually did descend into hell. We use the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 for this. The rich man and Lazarus could see each other. Nowadays, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8). There was a change, and the Bible is not clear on when. Possibly right at Christ's death, though that is conjecture. Maybe it has something to do with the massive resurrection Matthew talks about at Christ's death.
    Just curious, how do you explain a verse like Colossians 1:9, "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." Or Colossians 1:12-20, which says that Christ created all things, and that he reconciled us to himself.
    I think that is all I will post for now, the thing about different people claiming to be right, again, just observe what the Bible says.
    The Hebrew understanding of Abraham's bosom (concept is theirs) is where the dead awaits. Abraham is there and you should picture it as someone leaning towards the chest area of Abraham (see John the beloved in the Lord's supper for reference). The place is Sheol and it is a place which is divided into two - paradise (Abraham's bosom) and hell where the unrighteous dwell. Obviously this is not the place of the Father. Christ upon death (he died for our sins) probably went to paradise and not to hell - which was a miss match when "translating" Hebrew concepts to Greek (Sheol became Hades which became Hell in English).

    I know the common Christian thinks that good souls go to the Father (heaven) but that kinda makes Judgement Day (Ecclesiastes 3:17) moot wouldn't it?
    Christ had not yet ascended to the Father when meeting with Mary the first time (Sunday morning) and bade her not touch him (Some say she was his wife, but that is another discussion altogether). So he did not descend and ascend during the three days in the grave. He resurrected or was about to when he met with Mary, but had yet to Ascend to his Father (Heaven).
    About the massive Resurrection in Matthew, I think the King James version does it right when it states: after His Resurrection (capital H), meaning it was after Christ's Resurrection that many saints came from their graves (like Lazarus?), not necessarily Resurrected. Besides, scholars do not trust this as historical as the other Gospel writers don't mention it.

    Colossians 2:9 - the word should be theotes and should be understood as Deity and not Godhead. And viola, just a claim to be a god.
    Colossians 1:15-20 - You need to consider the context. Colossians were apostatizing and thought lesser of Christ (wonder why if the orthodox view was Trinitarianism(it was not)). Paul had to reaffirm the divinity of Christ as the creator of their reborn-ness and the Church and having prepared a place in his Father's kingdom.
    Read any book on Figures of Speech Used in the Bible and you will notice this is more like reproving your kids for having eaten all the cookies (perfectly understood NOT to be all the cookies in the world) as in a limited sense to Christ created all things.
    Last edited by Sigurd; 12-08-2014 at 13:10.
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