Ukraine Thread

[Gilrandir]

That sums up the Putin-Hitler comparison:
http://blogs.piie.com/realtime/?p=4254

[Fragony]

That sums up the Putin-Hitler comparison:
http://blogs.piie.com/realtime/?p=4254

Sorry but that's a bit rediculous. You can make my mother look like Hitler if you take out just a few things. The EU gave him the perfect excuse by trying to bring Ukraine into the EU, and he couldn't have reacted in any other way because he would have looked weak.

[Gilrandir]

The EU gave him the perfect excuse by trying to bring Ukraine into the EU, and he couldn't have reacted in any other way because he would have looked weak.

This is his greatest problem - face saving vulnerability. He takes everything personally. It has taken him into the dead end, yet he refuses to own up to it and persists in pushing his cause on and on.

[Husar]

Apparently Putin is now in talks with the inventors of democracy, it seems as though these most democratic people in the entire world prefer Putin as a friend over the fascist EU that's trying to starve them.
http://www.express.co.uk/finance/cit...an-Athens-cash

The plans were discussed as part of a hastened meeting between the Greek Prime Minister and Vladimir Putin today.

The Russian President confirmed that Greece did not ask for cash loans, but that the two countries continue to build a strengthened alliance.

Putin said Greek involvement in the Turkish Stream pipeline project could earn Greece "millions of euros" every year. And that Athens' Western creditors would benefit should the Greek economy improve as a result of closer economic cooperation between the European Union member state and Russia.

So will Putin finally be seen as a supporter of democracy?

And will the Nazis in Germany ever pay the 300 billion they owe Greece (according to Greece) in war reparations?
http://fortune.com/2015/04/07/greece...tions-germany/

“The German government’s categorical ‘Nein’ certainly cannot be allowed to stand. That’s disgraceful 70 years after the end of the war,” Groth said.

Is the EU as led by Germany and France the new oppressor of sovereign nation states? Britain has apparently thought so for a long time already, were they right after all?

[Greyblades]

Is the EU as led by Germany and France the new oppressor of sovereign nation states? Britain has apparently thought so for a long time already, were they right after all?

If it was actual competent and well meaning French/German leaders ruling over us, instead of the brain-dead Belgian bureaucrats we have, maybe we would think better of it.

[Fragony]

This is his greatest problem - face saving vulnerability. He takes everything personally. It has taken him into the dead end, yet he refuses to own up to it and persists in pushing his cause on and on.

There are probably much more hardline guys in Russia.

I blame the EU, how could he have reacted otherwise on this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQnXo2HMriQ

If that it was just stupid it was REALLY stupid. The EU basicly put his position at stake. China is going to eat Russia alive if he isn't strong.

[Gilrandir]

Apparently Putin is now in talks with the inventors of democracy, it seems as though these most democratic people in the entire world prefer Putin as a friend over the fascist EU that's trying to starve them.
So will Putin finally be seen as a supporter of democracy?

Being the inventor of democracy doesn't equal being democratic. Just like England was the inventor of football, yet it has been an age since it was (and only once) the world champion in it.

Is the EU as led by Germany and France the new oppressor of sovereign nation states? Britain has apparently thought so for a long time already, were they right after all?

Here is one of Putin's hopes - to split the EU's unified position on relations with Russia in general and on the sanctions in particular. But I think he can't offer anyone more than promises now - the finacial power of Russia is precarious. It couldn't even find the yearly modicum for Transdniestria this time.
http://www.moldova.org/for-the-first...-transnistria/
And locals complaining of it (sorry, in Russian):
http://ru.krymr.com/media/video/26948753.html

I blame the EU, how could he have reacted otherwise on this
If that it was just stupid it was REALLY stupid. The EU basicly put his position at stake. China is going to eat Russia alive if he isn't strong.

By reacting as he did Putin didn't get what he wanted and is not likely to. Enjoying the reputation of a calculated strategic player he should have known better than to act so emotionally. He may have had tactical gains, but in the long run he considerably worsened his position. This shows him being a tactician rather that a strategist.

[Brenus]

“By reacting as he did Putin didn't get what he wanted and is not likely to.” I don’t know really if Putin had intention and master plan, as I think he reacted more than he anticipated. I think he’s got what he wanted in saving (in his point of view) what could be saved when the mob expelled a more favourable Ukrainian President and put openly adversaries in power. He’s got Crimea, and no one really speak about it anymore. Ukraine will be a buffer zone. In fact, all moves from EU, US and actual Ukrainian Government gave him edges to work on. With NATO troops in Ukraine, he is now sure that Ukraine will never be reunited (without a victorious war for NATO). With EU policy he might have access to Greek Ports soon, or at least, might have someone willing to stop any new EU sanctions (rule of unanimity) and even brake the sanctions actually in place.

“to split the EU's unified position on relations with Russia in general and on the sanctions in particular.” What united or unified EU positions? They agreed on a minimum service and some are quiet keen in seeing them vanished. And thanks to EU policy against Greece, it might explode (or implode) soon.

“Is the EU as led by Germany and France the new oppressor of sovereign nation states?” I have unfortunately to answer yes to this. Germany by its policy and France being the lap dog in this case are responsible of a real human tragedy in Greece (as in Spain, Italy, Portugal) as they forget we are speaking of millions of human being push to extreme poverty in mane of an ideology. Where is the European Union, protecting the poor, creating jobs and building the peace? The only speech coming from EU is pay pay pay, cut cut cut, bleed bleed bleed, die die die. If possible in silence. They killed democracy in sham referendum. They fear the populations. They want sacrifices they won’t impose to themselves.

[Fragony]

Here is one of Putin's hopes - to split the EU's unified position on relations with Russia in general and on the sanctions in particular. But I think he can't offer anyone more than promises now - the finacial power of Russia is precarious. It couldn't even find the yearly modicum for .pTransdniestria this time.
http://www.moldova.org/for-the-first...-transnistria/
And locals complaining of it (sorry, in Russian):
http://ru.krymr.com/media/video/26948753.html-

Not asking for any agreement, just for consideration http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/re...ntl-relations/

^ that was the counter, here is the original http://books.google.nl/books?hl=en&l...=onepage&q=six principles of political realism morgenthau&f=false
When taking it as a given that Putin knows exactly what he is doing, the EU-policy looks a bit dumb.
W


By reacting as he did Putin didn't get what he wanted and is not likely to. Enjoying the reputation of a calculated strategic player he should have known better than to act so emotionally. He may have had tactical gains, but in the long run he considerably worsened his position. This shows him being a tactician rather that a strategist.

You can look at the west but I think he is more worried about the east, Russian territories are already Chinese in Chinese schoolbooks. Looking weak was probably the worst decision he could have made, Can't shake the thought that these idiots of the EU forced him into a position. That von Romppuy guy was very clear about the intention of the EU, securing all countries at Russia's borders. How can that be acceptablle, how can it be reasonable? Putin might be acting like a cat in distress but might he just have a very good reason to act in the way he does?

No need to agree, but just because of considerating it http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/re...ntl-relations/

Is he really a cat in distress or playing a better hand

Before anyone says it, I know I posted a counter I did that on purpose.

original text http://www.google.nl/search?hl=en-NL...80.0sYxA2Akpcc < this doesn't work, don't ask me why but it doesn't.

[Gilrandir]

“By reacting as he did Putin didn't get what he wanted and is not likely to.” I don’t know really if Putin had intention and master plan, as I think he reacted more than he anticipated. I think he’s got what he wanted in saving (in his point of view) what could be saved when the mob expelled a more favourable Ukrainian President and put openly adversaries in power. He’s got Crimea, and no one really speak about it anymore. Ukraine will be a buffer zone.

As his "Russian spring 2014" failed attempts showed, he had wanted more than what he has now. By having acted not so hastily, he could have had more than what you think he gained - a still (more or less) friendly nation at its borders, a much more significant percentage of pro-Russian population (and powerful pro-Russian parties) in it, trade benefits, perpetuation of Ukrainian gas addiction, two Mistrals, no sanctions, no need to hype military expenses, no oil price plummeting.... and he finds the Crimea more and more financially burdensome.
Having been more flexible, prudent and far-sighted Putin wouldn't have found himself in the pickle he is in now, or, to be more precise, in the cleft stick of his own cutting.

With NATO troops in Ukraine,

Are there any? I mean except instructors.

he is now sure that Ukraine will never be reunited (without a victorious war for NATO).

Yet what is left of Ukraine is relentlessly (for Putin) moving NATOwards. Just within a year Putin ensured it more that all previous NATO overtures and unsystematic attempts of Ukrainain politicains taken together.

“to split the EU's unified position on relations with Russia in general and on the sanctions in particular.” What united or unified EU positions? They agreed on a minimum service and some are quiet keen in seeing them vanished. And thanks to EU policy against Greece, it might explode (or implode) soon.

The position is still unified since the sanctions are still there. Greece, by its ostensibly pro-Russian stance, is trying to get more money from the EU or/and more beneficial conditions of paying it back (preferably NOT paying it back). It knows very well that others (i.e. Russia) are in no position to offer it anything.

Germany by its policy and France being the lap dog in this case are responsible of a real human tragedy in Greece (as in Spain, Italy, Portugal) as they forget we are speaking of millions of human being push to extreme poverty in mane of an ideology. Where is the European Union, protecting the poor, creating jobs and building the peace? The only speech coming from EU is pay pay pay, cut cut cut, bleed bleed bleed, die die die. If possible in silence. They killed democracy in sham referendum. They fear the populations. They want sacrifices they won’t impose to themselves.

So you believe that the countries you enumerated should be released from the abominable EU slavery and let go about by themselves? The moment they quit they will have jobs aplenty and economies booming? What makes you so sure it will save them from the collapse they are (as you believe) experiencing?

You can look at the west but I think he is more worried about the east, Russian territories are already Chinese in Chinese schoolbooks.

... and that is why he is keeping quite a sizable army in Ukraine, around it, in the Crimea and along Russia's western frontiers?

Looking weak was probably the worst decision he could have made, Can't shake the thought that these idiots of the EU forced him into a position. That von Romppuy guy was very clear about the intention of the EU, securing all countries at Russia's borders. How can that be acceptablle, how can it be reasonable? Putin might be acting like a cat in distress but might he just have a very good reason to act in the way he does?

Being a politician (and purportedly a wise and calculated one) he ought to know that not everything that escapes someone's lips is true and/or obligatory implementable. If you listen to what Zhirinovsky says and take it seriously, you would think that Russia IS at war with all the world. Political leaders ought to know the difference between empty lip service and real actions. Unfortunately for Ukraine, the former is mostly what the EU is now doing and the latter is what Russia is doing.