Ukraine Thread

[Brenus]

I think that once again you misunderstood. The Maidaners as you qualified them were not all Nazi, but were for better wages, against corruption etc. It was initially a social movement. However, the storming of the Parliament and the expulsion of an elected President and others was organised by the Nazi, proudly standing up in front of the building with the base-ball bats...

"And speaking of your good guys": About Putin, once again you are mistaken. Putin is probably closer to your political point, as nationalist (by the way, second link doesn't work) and political control. I am a lefty, Putin not, even if US and EU media replays the Cold war (especially the Bear still qualified as bombers ).

My all point is: Putin is doing what NATO is now doing for years, so I don't see the point of fake indignation from NATO's members. The Ukrainian's Russians are doing what the Ukrainian Nationalists/Nazi did in Maiden, so what the point of the fake indignation?

As my thinking process about it, I made it clear: Annexation of someone else territory is bad. Military intervention in someone else territory is bad. I am a leftist, so less borders better is for me. I don't like nationalism, Russian or Ukrainian.
Now, this crisis wouldn't have existed if the Coup would have not happened, but it did happened. Except if you want a war in a territory where a Nuclear Plant named Chernobyl is actually built, you have to find a political solution, and this solution will be a Bosnianisation (cantonisation) of Ukraine, contrary of what think your american expert in the alleged Putin's plan. It doesn't work really in Bosnia, but better a bad peace than a good war, war that no one can win any way, except to agree with casualties European and USA don't want to heard about.

[Montmorency]

but better a bad peace than a good war

And you said you were against massive bailouts and oversized influence of banks and corporations in the international system.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Brenus, surely "Coup" implies involvement of the military or the government in the overthrow of the legitimate leader? I don't recall any such, only the opposition engaged with the Maidan protestors, and the president wasn't overthrown, he fled, with all his luggage a motorcade and probably a lot of currency.

[Brenus]

"And you said you were against massive bailouts and oversized influence of banks and corporations in the international system" And?

"Brenus, surely "Coup" implies involvement of the military" I was once told when somebody said surely, it is not that sure. Any way, no. A Coup can be Constitutional i.e. the negation of the NO vote changed in a YES vote by Political Parties. It could be as well electoral, i.e. a brother telling the Nation his brother won the elections.

"and the president wasn't overthrown, he fled, with all his luggage a motorcade and probably a lot of currency." Oh? I didn't know he was not re-elected in fair election. I though he fled after a mob took the Parliament by storm then went to the official residence to get him. I perfectly remember seeing this on TV. I think he run for his life, but perhaps the mob just wanted to, err, not kill him.

[Gilrandir]

However, the storming of the Parliament and the expulsion of an elected President and others was organised by the Nazi, proudly standing up in front of the building with the base-ball bats...

How do you know? Have you been "deep in the counsels" of those you qualify as nazis?
I repeat: in all the actions of Maidan (including capture of administrative buildings) a whole spectrum of protesters was instrumental, and nazis have been only a small portion of them. The leaders of the movement (towards the end of February) have become violent, but it is no reason to call them nazis for that.

Putin is probably closer to your political point, as nationalist

I don't know what your "probably" refers to - my position or that of Putin. But in either case you are wrong. I have already said that my stance doesn't qualify the notion of nationalism (and I explained why) and as for Putin, we all seem to agree that he is a fascist (on each proper date) but not a nationalist.

second link doesn't work

http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/publi...ov-s-putin-war

The Ukrainian's Russians are doing what the Ukrainian Nationalists/Nazi did in Maiden

1. They are not Russians. Most of the residents of Donbas are ethnic Ukrainians. Again a gross overgeneralization, same as the nazi coup. Or do you mean aliens from Russia?
2. So Maidaners ripped up bellies of their captives, called for a foreign nation's leader to invade and held referenda to proclaim an independent state? I have already drawn comparison exposing differences of the two movements and no one disputed it.

As my thinking process about it, I made it clear: Annexation of someone else territory is bad. Military intervention in someone else territory is bad. I am a leftist, so less borders better is for me. I don't like nationalism, Russian or Ukrainian.

You may proclaim whatever you like, yet if we compare how Russia and Ukraine view the conflict, you side with Russia on all the key points:
1. Yanukovych ceased to be the president...
Ukraine: because people were cheated of their promises and stood up for their rights.
Russia and Brenus: because of the nazi coup.
2.Someone captured administrative buildings in the Crimea and held a referendum.
Ukraine: those were Russian regular army soldiers and spetznaz.
Russia and Brenus: those were local self-defense protesters.
3. There is an armed conflict in Donbas ...
Ukraine: because Russian spetznaz interfered and started the actual fighting phase.
Russia and Brenus: because local populaces revolted against the oppression of ethnic Russians and Russian-speakers.
4. The war was and is possible...
Ukraine: because Russia supplies the rebelled areas with arms and mercenaries.
Russia and Brenus: there are no Russian weapons in Donbas, Russians there are volunteers fighting for the idea.
5. Principal defeats were suffered by Ukraine and fighting is still going on...
Ukraine: because there is a sizable (8-10,000) group of Russian regular army forces who participate in and direct all military operations.
Russia and Brenus: there are no Russian regular troops in Donbas.
So it is evident, who are your favorites in the conflict.

Now, this crisis wouldn't have existed if the Coup would have not happened, but it did happened.

An artbitrary statement. I might as well say that it wouldn't have happened if Yanukovych had signed the AA treaty in November 2013, or if he hadn't proclaimed that he would in May 2013, or if Putin hadn't tired to persuade him not to, or if Yanukovych tried to negotiate with the protesters from the outset, or if Putin hadn't been elected the president of Russia for the third time, or....
The list of might-have-beens is endless and your choice of it once again manifests your attitude which once again chimes with Russia's.

Except if you want a war in a territory where a Nuclear Plant named Chernobyl is actually built

Your knowledge of Ukraine's geography and recent history seems shady. First of all, Chernobyl was shut down by president Kuchma in 2000, so it isn't functioning. And second of all, if you are to be afraid of the war engulfing Ukrainian power plants, there are others that are nearer to the fighting zone.

you have to find a political solution, and this solution will be a Bosnianisation (cantonisation) of Ukraine, contrary of what think your american expert in the alleged Putin's plan. It doesn't work really in Bosnia

What you advocate is what Putin is NOW trying to do: to push Lugandon back into Ukraine furnishing it with a veto right on all major decisions, both external and internal. If Ukrainian authorities agree to it, they will not be authorities for long, I think. What I can surmize from popular opinions, Ukrainians are ready to reconcile with the loss of the territory which otherwise will have to be rebuilt at an outrageous cost and whose population is almost totally averse to the rest of Ukraine's aspirations. So the situation is rather going Moldovan/Transdniestrian than Bosnian way.

[Brenus]

Well done. You know all your propaganda.

[Montmorency]

"And you said you were against massive bailouts and oversized influence of banks and corporations in the international system" And?

So you want things to be different, but you don't want to work to change them?

It seems strange that you plead that you consider both major sides in the Ukraine issue to be equivalent yet constantly pick on one side over the other, even though this one side has clearly been less militant than the other; furthermore, the rebels are only supported by 10% of the population, which makes things rather...lopsided.

Oh? I didn't know he was not re-elected in fair election. I though he fled after a mob took the Parliament by storm then went to the official residence to get him. I perfectly remember seeing this on TV. I think he run for his life, but perhaps the mob just wanted to, err, not kill him.

Of course, this sort of thinking would delegitimize virtually all revolts in history. But meanwhile, Yanukovuch fled the country, not just the city. People tend to do that once they've lost the confidence of almost everyone - including his usual Eastern-Ukrainian backers.

Some bloody leftist you are.

[Brenus]

"So you want things to be different, but you don't want to work to change them?" Sorry. I still don't get it. What are saying? What is the link between being again borders and against bail-out?

"Of course, this sort of thinking would delegitimize virtually all revolts in history." It was not necessary as an agreement has been reach thanks to the EU mediation. Th Coup was a successful attempt to rob the crowd of its victory by Nazi and it worked. Then the rest is histories.

"Some bloody leftist you are." Explain.

"People tend to do that once they've lost the confidence of almost everyone" And when mob want to kill them.

[Montmorency]

Sorry. I still don't get it. What are saying? What is the link between being again borders and against bail-out?

If a bad peace is better than a good war, then clearly it is incumbent upon citizens to endure anything to which they are subjected by governments and institutions, in perpetuity. I do not think you could maintain this position without undermining your entire life's ideology, not least all the comments you've made in this thread.

Th Coup was a successful attempt to rob the crowd of its victory by Nazi and it worked.

So you're saying that Yanukovych ran a coalition of fascists who then turned on him in order to take advantage of the public? Otherwise, it's difficult to see what connection your notion has to anything. The right wing opposition has only lost influence in the past 2 years. In fact, the height of their power was reached under Yanukovych's oversight.

"Some bloody leftist you are." Explain.

Your position on Ukraine in these threads seems to suggest that, as the United States and most European countries permit far-rightists to participate in the political process, these are not legitimate democracies and their citizens should be disenfranchised in order to prevent the possibility of fascists gaining political power. So why single out Ukraine?

And when mob want to kill them.

So literally everyone in the country wanted him dead? In that case, yeah, then it's probably easy to predict that someone will be coming for you soon - which is also probably why he began packing his bags before the vote on his removal was even taken.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

If a bad peace is better than a good war, then clearly it is incumbent upon citizens to endure anything to which they are subjected by governments and institutions, in perpetuity. I do not think you could maintain this position without undermining your entire life's ideology, not least all the comments you've made in this thread.



So you're saying that Yanukovych ran a coalition of fascists who then turned on him in order to take advantage of the public? Otherwise, it's difficult to see what connection your notion has to anything. The right wing opposition has only lost influence in the past 2 years. In fact, the height of their power was reached under Yanukovych's oversight.



Your position on Ukraine in these threads seems to suggest that, as the United States and most European countries permit far-rightists to participate in the political process, these are not legitimate democracies and their citizens should be disenfranchised in order to prevent the possibility of fascists gaining political power. So why single out Ukraine?



So literally everyone in the country wanted him dead? In that case, yeah, then it's probably easy to predict that someone will be coming for you soon - which is also probably why he began packing his bags before the vote on his removal was even taken.

This pretty much covers everything wrong with Brenus position -

A few right-wing fascists in the protests and it's a "Nazi coup"

Saint Paul said we should endure whatever the state inflicts upon us because the state's power is bestowed by God - he also said the Old Testament was infallible and the only useful guide to life, so he didn't know all that much about the real world.