Ukraine Thread

[Fragony]

Not making any claims because I simply don't understand everything, but first video on top http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven....html#comments
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You shall not pass?

[Gilrandir]

You can probably find most on google, I am not going to say anything at the moment.

Google? Brenus would have flagellated you. It is even worse than social media reliance.

Anyway, blaming Ukraine has a false premise at the outset since Ukraine didn't need any anti-jet facilities as the separatists didn't (and still don't) have any planes at their disposal and Russia was too clever to openly use planes because such facts of involvement could never be denied.

On a second thought, I guess Russia would come up with an explanation or other if such cases were spotted.

Not making any claims because I simply don't understand everything, but first video on top http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven....html#comments
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You shall not pass?

Didn't dare to open the link as it asked me in Dutch to do something. One can't be too wary.

[Fragony]

Don't worry it's safe, Dutch law dictates that it should be mentioned if a website uses cookies

[Gilrandir]

Don't worry it's safe, Dutch law dictates that it should be mentioned if a website uses cookies

What's cookies?

[Fragony]

What's cookies?

Almost every website uses them, Dutch websites are just required to mention it. Is the same for the websites of all newspapers, they just have to mention it that they do if it is a .nl domain.Don't worry, Geenstijl.nl is perfectly secured, better than government-sites.

[Sarmatian]

Anyway, blaming Ukraine has a false premise at the outset since Ukraine didn't need any anti-jet facilities as the separatists didn't (and still don't) have any planes at their disposal and Russia was too clever to openly use planes because such facts of involvement could never be denied.

It is impossible to say who fired the missile with certainty. It is more likely that the rebels did it, but I'm pretty sure it was mistake whoever did it.

Overall, the blame is on Ukraine because it didn't close that area off for civilian air traffic, regardless of who fired the actual missile.

[Husar]

Don't worry it's safe, Dutch law dictates that it should be mentioned if a website uses cookies

Not just dutch: https://www.cookielaw.org/the-cookie-law/

[Fragony]

I don't care who did it, mistakes happen. Can't say the Dutch government is very interested though, lots of myst here. America supposedly has the intell but to their amazement nobody asked for it.

Edit, I'll narrow it down for you a bit. Dutch government has the images of an area of 400 square km, America has much more precise images, 1 square kilometer. Nobody ever asked for these. Forensic evidence suggest that the plane was shot from behind because the front has exit-damage, not impact damage. Minister of justice-department has zero to say, he says the justice department told him they have enough, but there is no correspodance. Krazilec is the jurist so he might have to correct me, but I don't think the justice-department has a role in the international arena

[Gilrandir]

Overall, the blame is on Ukraine because it didn't close that area off for civilian air traffic, regardless of who fired the actual missile.

Who could have doubted that Ukraine is to blame.

First of all, IIRC other companies redirected their flight routes without waiting for anyone to tell them to do that. Only Malaysian airways didn't.
Second of all Ukraine didn't know the separatists had received from Russia weapons able to reach the altitude passenger planes fly at.

[Gilrandir]

Not making any claims because I simply don't understand everything, but first video on top http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven....html#comments
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You shall not pass?

Can't hear what the guy says. No sound somehow.

[Fragony]

http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven....html#comments should work, has nothing to do with that plane though

upper video, it's French but not hard to understand

[Sarmatian]

Who could have doubted that Ukraine is to blame.

That's the conclusion of the Dutch investigation, why are you angry at me for?

[Fragony]

That's the conclusion of the Dutch investigation, why are you angry at me for?

No it isn't Sarmss, nobody is pointing any fingers at anyone. It's a big mystery why that plane was shot down and by who. Both the Dutch and Ukrainian governments are very unwilling to cooperate. I can't know of course but I think it's muffled down becacause of the association treaty and the Dutch being the concert on the Titanic (read EU) for a while

[Sarmatian]

No it isn't Sarmss, nobody is pointing any fingers at anyone. It's a big mystery why that plane was shot down and by who. Both the Dutch and Ukrainian governments are very unwilling to cooperate. I can't know of course but I think it's muffled down becacause of the association treaty and the Dutch being the concert on the Titanic (read EU) for a while

Well, it wasn't the criminal investigation, but Dutch Safety Board chairman explicitly stated that Ukraine had enough evidence to close the air space for civilian travel and should have done so.

[Fragony]

Well, it wasn't the criminal investigation, but Dutch Safety Board chairman explicitly stated that Ukraine had enough evidence to close the air space for civilian travel and should have done so.

That's true of course, but the Dutch government was also warned and they seem to have done nothing with that warning. Minister of foreign afairs very quikly fled to Brussel for a freshly created function of being Junckers secretary

[Sarmatian]

That's true of course, but the Dutch government was also warned and they seem to have done nothing with that warning. Minister of foreign afairs very quikly fled to Brussel for a freshly created function of being Junckers secretary

No one needs to warn the government, there are international civilian aviation institutions that deal with that and they needed to be warned.

If someone warned the Dutch government, why only Dutch government? There were dozens of airplanes from many countries in that area on that day, three were in close proximity to MH117 at the time of detonation.

[Fragony]

No one needs to warn the government, there are international civilian aviation institutions that deal with that and they needed to be warned.

If someone warned the Dutch government, why only Dutch government? There were dozens of airplanes from many countries in that area on that day, three were in close proximity to MH117 at the time of detonation.

The warnings were kinda specific, something should have been done with it. But I don't think we will get to know, without saying the investigation is unwanted I strongly suspect it is. I am not alone in that, America is kinda amazed that Dutch government never asked for their satelite-intell, acurate to a square km, not the 400 square km we have, so is Malesia. French airliners did change course by the way

[Gilrandir]

http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven....html#comments should work, has nothing to do with that plane though

upper video, it's French but not hard to understand

And what does it prove? The fact that there were nazis on Maidan? Never denied that one. I denied the premise that they formed the bulk of protesters, were the moving force behind all the actions and have ruled (are still ruling) the country ever since. Anyway, no one seemed very excited when nazis took important positions in the Russian government:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aI0eEH_ZuHE
The guy who is saluting at the end of the 2007 video (and the crowd around is following him) is Dmitry Rogozin - DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER of Russia.

As for the French movie - started to watch it but when I saw videos with Azov marching on Maidan (it was formed THREE MONTHS AFTER those events) and heard that in Odesa 46 people "of Russian origin" died (the total number of victims was 48 (6 of whom were pro-Ukrainian fotball fans killed at the march before the fire started), but the author CAN'T KNOW THEIR ORIGIN - all he can speculate on is their political stance) - gave it up. More on the film is here (it is in French, sorry):
http://www.lemonde.fr/televisions-ra...2_1655027.html

Well, it wasn't the criminal investigation, but Dutch Safety Board chairman explicitly stated that Ukraine had enough evidence to close the air space for civilian travel and should have done so.

As I have mentioned, Ukraine DIDN'T HAVE enough evidence, the Stinger type missile launchers the separatists had couldn't reach the altitude used by passenger planes. The Buk could - but at that time Ukraine didn't know Russia provided it (with the crew) for them to use.

[Fragony]

Never said you did, it's just one of the many reasons why I am going to vote against the treaty 6 april, not that it matters whatever I vote in post-democratic Europe.

[Sarmatian]

As I have mentioned, Ukraine DIDN'T HAVE enough evidence, the Stinger type missile launchers the separatists had couldn't reach the altitude used by passenger planes. The Buk could - but at that time Ukraine didn't know Russia provided it (with the crew) for them to use.

Why are you arguing with me? That is not my conclusion.

This is where you should send your explanations

Tel (+31) 70 333 70 00
Postal adress
Dutch Safety Board
PO Box 95404 25 09 CK The Hague

Visiting adress
Anna van Saksenlaan 50
2593 HT The Hague

or send them an email at info@onderzoeksraad.nl

[Gilrandir]

Why are you arguing with me? That is not my conclusion.

If you referred to them, you are lining up with them. Otherwise you would have mentioned that you don't agree.

[Fragony]

Why are you arguing with me? That is not my conclusion.

This is where you should send your explanations



or send them an email at info@onderzoeksraad.nl

By all means do, at least 40% of it survived the black marker

[Gilrandir]

And Russian foreign office employees sport their trappings, very similar to Nazi one. A coincidence?
http://nv.ua/world/countries/polzova...tej-96620.html
(It is in Russian, but the pictures speak for themselves).

[Sarmatian]

If you referred to them, you are lining up with them. Otherwise you would have mentioned that you don't agree.

I don't agree with them because of the report but because they are an authority (while you are not) and because they are impartial (while you are not). I see no reason why I should reject their conclusion.

I also don't think Ukraine is to blame in the classic sense of the word. Obviously, the guilty person is the one who fired that missile, but Kiev should have closed off that area, especially as the aircraft losses started happening on higher altitudes, over 6 km, which is the upper limit for most shoulder launched AA missiles.

[Gilrandir]

I don't agree with them because of the report but because they are an authority (while you are not) and because they are impartial (while you are not). I see no reason why I should reject their conclusion.

The reasons don't matter - you agree. Hence you can't pretend to ignore contrary arguments directed against the point of view you subscribe to.

I also don't think Ukraine is to blame in the classic sense of the word. Obviously, the guilty person is the one who fired that missile, but Kiev should have closed off that area, especially as the aircraft losses started happening on higher altitudes, over 6 km, which is the upper limit for most shoulder launched AA missiles.

MH 17 was the first aircraft loss at such an altitude, so before it Ukraine had had no reason to close off the area. And again, other companies had reshaped their routes without any tip or order.

[Sarmatian]

The reasons don't matter - you agree. Hence you can't pretend to ignore contrary arguments directed against the point of view you subscribe to.

You missed the point. This is way, way, waaaaaaay out of my area of expertise, so I defer to the conclusion made by (apparently unbiased) experts. You can not persuade me to contrary by pointing to flaws in their reasoning when I have literally no clue in that subject. If they change their report tomorrow, I'll accept their new conclusions.

MH 17 was the first aircraft loss at such an altitude, so before it Ukraine had had no reason to close off the area. And again, other companies had reshaped their routes without any tip or order.

Can't remember if they reported an actual number of planes, but the video showed very, very many dots flying around the area on that date.

[Gilrandir]

You missed the point. This is way, way, waaaaaaay out of my area of expertise, so I defer to the conclusion made by (apparently unbiased) experts. You can not persuade me to contrary by pointing to flaws in their reasoning when I have literally no clue in that subject. If they change their report tomorrow, I'll accept their new conclusions.

Then you are on the wrong boards (that is if there are other type of boards anywhere). Here (as much as elsewhere) frothing laymen discuss things they are not experts at and promote their opinions and even (God forbid) conclusions.

Anyway, clueless you (as you say) can nevertheless blame Ukraine for not closing its airspace and claim that the plane was shot down by mistake. So your deferring to the opinion of experts sometimes gives way to your personal attitudes.

[lars573]

And Russian foreign office employees sport their trappings, very similar to Nazi one. A coincidence?
http://nv.ua/world/countries/polzova...tej-96620.html
(It is in Russian, but the pictures speak for themselves).

It's a diplomatic uniform that goes back to the Soviet Union. That's why it's less ostentatious than say a Commonwealth one.

[Papewaio]

And Russian foreign office employees sport their trappings, very similar to Nazi one. A coincidence?
http://nv.ua/world/countries/polzova...tej-96620.html
(It is in Russian, but the pictures speak for themselves).

Pfft it looks like a poorly fitted double blazer. More likely to be confused with an English naval officer or more likely postman if the colour was navy blue in the link.

One thing about the (Hugo Boss) Nazi Uniforms is that they looked sharp not baggy.

[Hooahguy]

Ok not super relevant but I want to post this somewhere: for my birthday my father got me one of those fabled Putin calendars. Wasnt able to get it signed by the man himself. Still an amazing gift.