Ukraine Thread

**Gilrandir** · 02-10-2016, 10:45

Originally Posted by Fragony

You can probably find most on google, I am not going to say anything at the moment.

Google? Brenus would have flagellated you. It is even worse than social media reliance.

Anyway, blaming Ukraine has a false premise at the outset since Ukraine didn't need any anti-jet facilities as the separatists didn't (and still don't) have any planes at their disposal and Russia was too clever to openly use planes because such facts of involvement could never be denied.

On a second thought, I guess Russia would come up with an explanation or other if such cases were spotted.

Originally Posted by Fragony

Not making any claims because I simply don't understand everything, but first video on top http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven....html#comments
-

You shall not pass?

Didn't dare to open the link as it asked me in Dutch to do something. One can't be too wary.

**Fragony** · 02-10-2016, 10:56

Don't worry it's safe, Dutch law dictates that it should be mentioned if a website uses cookies

**Gilrandir** · 02-10-2016, 11:02

Originally Posted by Fragony

Don't worry it's safe, Dutch law dictates that it should be mentioned if a website uses cookies

What's cookies?

**Fragony** · 02-10-2016, 12:10

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

What's cookies?

Almost every website uses them, Dutch websites are just required to mention it. Is the same for the websites of all newspapers, they just have to mention it that they do if it is a .nl domain.Don't worry, Geenstijl.nl is perfectly secured, better than government-sites.

**Husar** · 02-10-2016, 13:35

Originally Posted by Fragony

Don't worry it's safe, Dutch law dictates that it should be mentioned if a website uses cookies

Not just dutch: https://www.cookielaw.org/the-cookie-law/

**Sarmatian** · 02-10-2016, 12:46

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

Anyway, blaming Ukraine has a false premise at the outset since Ukraine didn't need any anti-jet facilities as the separatists didn't (and still don't) have any planes at their disposal and Russia was too clever to openly use planes because such facts of involvement could never be denied.

It is impossible to say who fired the missile with certainty. It is more likely that the rebels did it, but I'm pretty sure it was mistake whoever did it.

Overall, the blame is on Ukraine because it didn't close that area off for civilian air traffic, regardless of who fired the actual missile.

**Fragony** · 02-10-2016, 13:39

I don't care who did it, mistakes happen. Can't say the Dutch government is very interested though, lots of myst here. America supposedly has the intell but to their amazement nobody asked for it.

Edit, I'll narrow it down for you a bit. Dutch government has the images of an area of 400 square km, America has much more precise images, 1 square kilometer. Nobody ever asked for these. Forensic evidence suggest that the plane was shot from behind because the front has exit-damage, not impact damage. Minister of justice-department has zero to say, he says the justice department told him they have enough, but there is no correspodance. Krazilec is the jurist so he might have to correct me, but I don't think the justice-department has a role in the international arena

**Gilrandir** · 02-10-2016, 16:43

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Overall, the blame is on Ukraine because it didn't close that area off for civilian air traffic, regardless of who fired the actual missile.

Who could have doubted that Ukraine is to blame.

First of all, IIRC other companies redirected their flight routes without waiting for anyone to tell them to do that. Only Malaysian airways didn't.
Second of all Ukraine didn't know the separatists had received from Russia weapons able to reach the altitude passenger planes fly at.

**Sarmatian** · 02-10-2016, 17:30

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

Who could have doubted that Ukraine is to blame.

That's the conclusion of the Dutch investigation, why are you angry at me for?

**Fragony** · 02-10-2016, 21:45

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

That's the conclusion of the Dutch investigation, why are you angry at me for?

No it isn't Sarmss, nobody is pointing any fingers at anyone. It's a big mystery why that plane was shot down and by who. Both the Dutch and Ukrainian governments are very unwilling to cooperate. I can't know of course but I think it's muffled down becacause of the association treaty and the Dutch being the concert on the Titanic (read EU) for a while

**Sarmatian** · 02-10-2016, 22:54

Originally Posted by Fragony

No it isn't Sarmss, nobody is pointing any fingers at anyone. It's a big mystery why that plane was shot down and by who. Both the Dutch and Ukrainian governments are very unwilling to cooperate. I can't know of course but I think it's muffled down becacause of the association treaty and the Dutch being the concert on the Titanic (read EU) for a while

Well, it wasn't the criminal investigation, but Dutch Safety Board chairman explicitly stated that Ukraine had enough evidence to close the air space for civilian travel and should have done so.

**Fragony** · 02-11-2016, 03:07

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Well, it wasn't the criminal investigation, but Dutch Safety Board chairman explicitly stated that Ukraine had enough evidence to close the air space for civilian travel and should have done so.

That's true of course, but the Dutch government was also warned and they seem to have done nothing with that warning. Minister of foreign afairs very quikly fled to Brussel for a freshly created function of being Junckers secretary

**Gilrandir** · 02-11-2016, 14:30

Originally Posted by Fragony

http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven....html#comments should work, has nothing to do with that plane though

upper video, it's French but not hard to understand

And what does it prove? The fact that there were nazis on Maidan? Never denied that one. I denied the premise that they formed the bulk of protesters, were the moving force behind all the actions and have ruled (are still ruling) the country ever since. Anyway, no one seemed very excited when nazis took important positions in the Russian government:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aI0eEH_ZuHE
The guy who is saluting at the end of the 2007 video (and the crowd around is following him) is Dmitry Rogozin - DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER of Russia.

As for the French movie - started to watch it but when I saw videos with Azov marching on Maidan (it was formed THREE MONTHS AFTER those events) and heard that in Odesa 46 people "of Russian origin" died (the total number of victims was 48 (6 of whom were pro-Ukrainian fotball fans killed at the march before the fire started), but the author CAN'T KNOW THEIR ORIGIN - all he can speculate on is their political stance) - gave it up. More on the film is here (it is in French, sorry):
http://www.lemonde.fr/televisions-ra...2_1655027.html

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Well, it wasn't the criminal investigation, but Dutch Safety Board chairman explicitly stated that Ukraine had enough evidence to close the air space for civilian travel and should have done so.

As I have mentioned, Ukraine DIDN'T HAVE enough evidence, the Stinger type missile launchers the separatists had couldn't reach the altitude used by passenger planes. The Buk could - but at that time Ukraine didn't know Russia provided it (with the crew) for them to use.