Ukraine Thread

**Gilrandir** · 10-18-2016, 12:07

A film on how much Russia is involved in Donbas:
http://www.france24.com/en/20161014-...kraine-weapons
At 2.40 a curious conversation in which separatists contrive shelling of their own positions to blame it on the Ukrainian army.

**Seamus Fermanagh** · 10-18-2016, 18:02

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

A film on how much Russia is involved in Donbas:
http://www.france24.com/en/20161014-...kraine-weapons
At 2.40 a curious conversation in which separatists contrive shelling of their own positions to blame it on the Ukrainian army.

Gil'

In point of fact, I haven't really doubted, ever, that Russia has been manipulating the whole thing, from the start, to acquire all of Ukraine East of the Dneper along with the Crimea. They want to own/control virtually all of the industrialized portion of Ukraine while leaving Western Ukraine as perpetually weak as Moldava so as to have a nice buffer for themselves.

The real issue, and this is very much the sticking point, is what the heck to do about it.

**Gilrandir** · 10-19-2016, 14:58

Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Gil'

In point of fact, I haven't really doubted, ever, that Russia has been manipulating the whole thing, from the start, to acquire all of Ukraine East of the Dneper along with the Crimea. They want to own/control virtually all of the industrialized portion of Ukraine while leaving Western Ukraine as perpetually weak as Moldava so as to have a nice buffer for themselves.

The real issue, and this is very much the sticking point, is what the heck to do about it.

I linked the film since there are some people (even on these boards) who still believe that what Ukraine is experiencing is a civil war waged by the oppressed Russian speakers against Kiev nazis.

As to what to do - no one knows that. The only way I see is to outlast Russia hoping it will be burdened by its own problems too much to pay serious attention to Ukraine. One of such problems may be the change of leadership.

**Seamus Fermanagh** · 10-19-2016, 18:07

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

I linked the film since there are some people (even on these boards) who still believe that what Ukraine is experiencing is a civil war waged by the oppressed Russian speakers against Kiev nazis....

Those elements do exist in the current conflict, but I think you would find very few people -- even on these boards -- who could actually believe that the whole internal portion of this squabble could have amounted to anything like this without Russia aiding and abetting for their own benefit (or maybe even having fomented it).

Regrettably, there are any number of European governments who are willing to "officially" accept that fig leaf -- because the alternative (action against Russia) is too scary. The USA doesn't accept the fig leaf -- but still isn't willing to take decisive action.

**Fragony** · 10-20-2016, 08:49

The association treaty IS an action against Russia, and yes that scares me, granted. A Russisn leader can never look weak he doesn't have the luxory. Ukrainian, nazi's, what to say.