Ukraine Thread

[Fragony]

I have my own opinion as to whether Ukraine will win or lose by having the AA with the EU. The same as on Brexit. And both are different from yours.



You mean that without the AA we wouldn't have the proxy-war and wouldn't export babies to the EU?


Do you think I can only come if the AA is signed? And why would you need me over there?

What I think is that you meant visa-free traveling, not the AA.

Free travel is fine, people keep forgetting the military aspects

[Gilrandir]

Free travel is fine, people keep forgetting the military aspects

Then you evidently had some news on AA which I didn't and which got you so emotional.

[Fragony]

That much seems obvious

[Gilrandir]

That much seems obvious

Then spill out your information - is it somehow connected with the Netherlands changing their stance on Ukraine-EU AA?

[Fragony]

Then spill out your information - is it somehow connected with the Netherlands changing their stance on Ukraine-EU AA?

No do you expect the Netherlands to have any influence. The deal with Russia has always been that 'whe' the west would never creep up on them. The AA treaty basicly makes the Ukraine a member-state and a military partner. There more reasons why we said no to it including just hating the EU but (which will be ignored, referendum is not binding) there very good other reasons as well but these only concern us really

[Gilrandir]

The AA treaty basicly makes the Ukraine a member-state and a military partner.

Association =/= Membership nor Military partnership.

[Gilrandir]

Putin demands compensation for the damage caused by US sanctions:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-ru...KCN1231HA?il=0

[spmetla]

No chance of that happening.

[Fragony]

Association =/= Membership nor Military partnership.

The first no, the second yes. Our mp is cornered on the latter because nobody wants it here, only the EU does. You must not have heard of it but it's a major issue here. Biggest issue is simply that we said no to it, for various reasons, often just hate for the EU I'll admit that

[Gilrandir]

The first no, the second yes. Our mp is cornered on the latter because nobody wants it here, only the EU does. You must not have heard of it but it's a major issue here. Biggest issue is simply that we said no to it, for various reasons, often just hate for the EU I'll admit that

EU is not a military alliance and doesn't have its armed forces, so the part in the Ukraine-EU AA which you are so afraid of concerns security issues, not military ones. Anyway, we both read the corresponding part of the agreement and had a discussion of it, if you remember.

Meanwhile in Russia:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...ring-pre-teen/

[Gilrandir]

Putin cancels his visit to France.
http://www.i24news.tv/en/news/intern...ift-over-syria

[Gilrandir]

Now we had it - finally Putin admits Russia was involved into Donbas.
http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1476316494
So much for rioting populaces of scared Russian-speakers.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Now we had it - finally Putin admits Russia was involved into Donbas.
http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1476316494
So much for rioting populaces of scared Russian-speakers.

He said the troops were there "resolving various issues." No doubt he is requiring his troops to settle outstanding gambling debts, pay off parking tickets, and probably marry a few locals who got ankled. Surely he was not intimating an out-and-out military role?

[Gilrandir]

He said the troops were there "resolving various issues." No doubt he is requiring his troops to settle outstanding gambling debts, pay off parking tickets, and probably marry a few locals who got ankled. Surely he was not intimating an out-and-out military role?

He had said it in 2015, so I wouldn't link to the information that old. The latest claim of his (two passages above the one you referred to) is that "they were forced to defend the Russian-speaking population of Donbas". How can you defend somebody on the territory of another country but by sending troops?

Ptuin rhetoric on Donbas shows the same tendency as with Crimea: in March 2014 he said that Russian army didn't participate in besieging Ukrainian military bases - it was local militias (who were dressed in Russian-looking uniforms bought in stores) and that there are no Russian army units in Crimea (except those of the navy); in April he said that "behind local militias stood Russian soldiers", and later (don't remember the exact date, it seems it was in August 2014) he said that they NEVER denied Russian troops played the crucial role in overrunning Crimea.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I was being facetious.

[Gilrandir]

I was being facetious.

I got it.

Meanwhile PACE acknowledges war in Donbas for what it is - Russian aggression:
http://uatoday.tv/politics/political...ne-785449.html

[Seamus Fermanagh]

What day is it?

[Gilrandir]

What day is it?

The date of the article is October 13, so the resolution was passed on that day or the day before.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The date of the article is October 13, so the resolution was passed on that day or the day before.

was actually asking what day it is expecting "today is 16 October 2016 and so and so is still a...."

[Gilrandir]

was actually asking what day it is expecting "today is 16 October 2016 and so and so is still a...."

Not my style.

[Fragony]

Well as it looks the Netherlands won't be participating in the sneaked in military part of the treaty, but that is not enough. We were pretty clear about what we don't want to be a part of

[Gilrandir]

A film on how much Russia is involved in Donbas:
http://www.france24.com/en/20161014-...kraine-weapons
At 2.40 a curious conversation in which separatists contrive shelling of their own positions to blame it on the Ukrainian army.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

A film on how much Russia is involved in Donbas:
http://www.france24.com/en/20161014-...kraine-weapons
At 2.40 a curious conversation in which separatists contrive shelling of their own positions to blame it on the Ukrainian army.

Gil'

In point of fact, I haven't really doubted, ever, that Russia has been manipulating the whole thing, from the start, to acquire all of Ukraine East of the Dneper along with the Crimea. They want to own/control virtually all of the industrialized portion of Ukraine while leaving Western Ukraine as perpetually weak as Moldava so as to have a nice buffer for themselves.

The real issue, and this is very much the sticking point, is what the heck to do about it.

[Gilrandir]

Gil'

In point of fact, I haven't really doubted, ever, that Russia has been manipulating the whole thing, from the start, to acquire all of Ukraine East of the Dneper along with the Crimea. They want to own/control virtually all of the industrialized portion of Ukraine while leaving Western Ukraine as perpetually weak as Moldava so as to have a nice buffer for themselves.

The real issue, and this is very much the sticking point, is what the heck to do about it.

I linked the film since there are some people (even on these boards) who still believe that what Ukraine is experiencing is a civil war waged by the oppressed Russian speakers against Kiev nazis.

As to what to do - no one knows that. The only way I see is to outlast Russia hoping it will be burdened by its own problems too much to pay serious attention to Ukraine. One of such problems may be the change of leadership.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I linked the film since there are some people (even on these boards) who still believe that what Ukraine is experiencing is a civil war waged by the oppressed Russian speakers against Kiev nazis....

Those elements do exist in the current conflict, but I think you would find very few people -- even on these boards -- who could actually believe that the whole internal portion of this squabble could have amounted to anything like this without Russia aiding and abetting for their own benefit (or maybe even having fomented it).

Regrettably, there are any number of European governments who are willing to "officially" accept that fig leaf -- because the alternative (action against Russia) is too scary. The USA doesn't accept the fig leaf -- but still isn't willing to take decisive action.

[Fragony]

The association treaty IS an action against Russia, and yes that scares me, granted. A Russisn leader can never look weak he doesn't have the luxory. Ukrainian, nazi's, what to say.

[Fragony]

Getting really dangerous https://mobile.twitter.com/NATO/status/789170642897686529?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

[Gilrandir]

Smoke on the water (performed by Russia):
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...ical-problems/

[Gilrandir]

On one of the principal Putin's aides:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...v-east-ukraine

[Fragony]

Very big lol, our much beloved PM starts talking about what vaccuum-bombs do when being asked why the associating-treaty is so important, not just a trade-agreement dear president hmmmm? We (those who trust blogs more than state-media and quality newspapers) already knew that and said no to what you said all the time. It's true though for a change, vaccuum-bombs really suck. But what does that have be with something that is just a 'trade agreement', how obvious can you admit that it's more. People who don't watch state-tv and don't read quality newspapers already knew that. Now some of those who as well but they probably just want to bake a pie becsuse of someones birthday. No you stephord wives it's not just a trade-agreement and people who know that at least TRIED to stop it