Ukraine Thread

[Gilrandir]

“Having these considerations in mind and trying to put oneself in his place makes me wish to forgive such a man defending his native land against all odds.” And killing Jews was helping in doing what? No, sorry, this man was and is still and for ever a war criminal and scum.

Were there any Jews mentioned in all the arguments? But, as I have said, many of the figures which are glorified today (Bogdan Khmelnitsky or Ivan Gonta http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Gonta) don't have a clean record as far as Jews are concerned. I'm sure each country has such people in history. There are no only black or only white characters. I was trying to see the then situation through the eyes of an average citizen of Western Ukraine and explain his feelings.

What pipelines do you mean? The South Stream was suspended indefinitely, any others are still only nascent projects so far from implementation, that it is precarious to speak of them being "secured".
Apparently, I am not the only one with this idea:
http://www.theguardian.com/environme...vals-pipelines
http://qha.com.ua/crimean-enterprise...-119164en.html
Plus a bonus
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/18/wo...-reserves.html

All the articles you link speak of the Ukrainian pipelines near the Crimea now owned by Russia. They are of no transitional value for Russia, just another piece of confiscated Ukrainian property. I meant the pipelines that can help Russia to pump its gas westwards. Such pipelines were not secured by the Crimea annexation.

“And you call it a strategic victory?” Yeap, considering without it Russia would have NATO’s troops directly at one very long border more. And Ukraine have no chance to be part of NATO until peace is restored, and that is why Putin doesn’t push for, how you called it, Novorussia?

I called it? It was your friend Putin who disinterred the long-forgotten nomen.
But as for the rest, it is again misinterpretation. Did I speak of Ukraine joining NATO? I said that any NATO forces are now welcome to be deployed in Ukraine. And as joint military exercise in Lviv region show, the very fact of them got Russia furious:
http://news.yahoo.com/us-ukraine-sta...112519186.html

What he needs is 2 or 3 “Russian” provinces with large autonomy (so my reference as Bosnianisation) that can block any attempt by the Ukrainian Government to join NATO. Is this so difficult to understand?

I was the one who said that this very scenario is what Putin is aiming at now. And which he he'll never get. The public opinion in Ukraine would not tolerate it and all current powers that be realize it.

“Somehow, they have been doing fine without Russia so far” Really? Why Assad wasn’t bombed last year? Ah, yeah, Russia did oppose… As you said, US&EU manage very well the Iranian Nuclear Program with Russia… Oh no, they didn’t. They asked Russia for help…

And somehow the sky didn't fall on earth because all major decisions have been adopted without Russia for a year or so. Evidently Russia's help is not sine qua non so far.

“So this "badly need" is only your wishful thinking.” Unfortunately not, it is just a cold assessment of real politic, not distorted by nationalism and disillusion.

Stigmatizing people without a valid reason and explanation has always been a favorite game of yours. Carry on, dude.

I can see that the prospect to have more Nazi in power fills you of joy and pleasure. Why am I not surprise?

You see joy and pleasure where there are none. But everyone extrapolates his feelings on the feelings of others while trying to explain things beyond his comprehension. What I have paid attention to for more than a year is the fact that nazism in Ukraine is no more likely than nazism in France.

They had a Nazi lile ideology, they allied with the Nazi, and did all Nazi things. And today they proudly wear the insignia of the 2 SS Das Reich in their meeting and in the today Ukrainian Army unit as shown previously.

They do, as well as some Germans town on their coats of arms. But this discussion repeats itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacr...astern_Galicia

If you read the WHOLE text you linked carefully, you couldn't have missed this part:

Ukrainian casualties
Ukrainian casualties at the hands of Poles are estimated at 2,000-3,000 in Volhynia. Together with those killed in other areas, the number of Ukrainian casualties were between 10,000 and 15,000, with the bulk of these occurring in Eastern Galicia and present-day Poland. The numbers included those who died as part of communist repression in post-war Poland. According to Kataryna Wolczuk for all areas affected by conflict, the Ukrainian casualties are estimated as from 10,000 to 30,000 between 1943 and 1947.

Which again bears out my point: given the cruelty of the war, there were a lot of dirty deeds done at that time. Or do you think Western allies or Soviet troops committed no atrocities in liberated lands or in Germany? Yet everybody glorifies now the valiant armies who delivered the world from the nazi plague. We should acknowledge every little fact of such deeds and make peace. Let the past bury its dead.

I know that time is relative, but hasn't it been 70 years in Ukraine also?
Anyway, past repressions are not a justification for mass-murdering civilians.

Did I justify any? As for the years that have lapsed, it is the main point of the whole argument: why should the events of the 70-year-old past (however glorious or grievous all sides of the conflict may consider them) be a reason to sow hatred and wage a war today?

So you think he would actually attack NATO?

I mean that there is no reason to pay attention to what Putin says, still less to his promises - once a liar, always a liar.