Ukraine Thread

[Sarmatian]

I was wondering when someone will reopen the discussion.

A big opportunity for peace has been missed. After the Ukrainian parliamentary elections, Russia recognized the results as legitimate will of the Ukrainian people. A few days later, elections in the rebel controlled areas were held, and representatives elected. It was a perfect occasion for two sides to recognize each other's representatives so that proper dialogue can start. Kiev refused to do so.

Instead, Kiev proceeded to physically cut the rebel controlled areas from the rest of the country - passport control, cutting them off the budget (pensions, salaries...) and refusing to supply them with basic necessities, most importantly gas for heating.

Now, all potential avenues for dialogue are closed, and there simply is no other options for people in Donetsk and Lugansk but to fight and try to secede. I'm hoping it won't come to that. but they have been cornered, there's no other way to go for them now.

I'm still trying to understand why Kiev did what they did.

[a completely inoffensive name]

It's November 13th, and Putin is still a fascist.

[Strike For The South]

Don't worry I'm sure once he gets sudentanland Eastern Ukarine I'm sure he will stop. I'm not even sure those brutish drunks know how much up shit creek they really are

[HoreTore]

I hear Darth Sidious is on his way.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30039004

The Russians are transporting their dead soldiers home.

Not like we didn't know of course.

Kiev, of course, expected Russia and the Separatists to follow the proposed timetable. Likewise, Russia and the Separatists never intended to.

If the Separatists were going to hold election two days after the Ukrainian one that would have been what was reported ALL OVER THE WORLD after the Minsk talks.

I think the best we can hope for now is that Ukraine is able to push the rebels back when they launch their spring offensive (the rebels have admitted it's coming).

[Brenus]

Well, according my Yahoo:
Putin prepared the WW3 years ago.
Russia start to feel the pinch of sanctions for months (nothing to do with the oil prices going down apparently)
Putin allied with IS.
Putin was invading Ukraine.
Bombers carrying Nuclear weapons are daily intercepted by (Norwegian, British, Polish, NATO) airplanes (pictures of Tupolev T 95 4 engines Bear as illustration)
Russian Navy spying from International Waters New-Zealand.
Bombers (again Tupolev T 95 Bear) flying near Cuba, then New-Zealand.
Russian sub-marine is being spotted by Norwegian (I think) Navy.
Russia starts to feel the pinch of Western Sanction (again).
Hundreds of thousands of Russian troops are gathering near the borders with thousands of tanks.

I probably forget some.

So, it is time for Putin to DO something…

[Gilrandir]

A big opportunity for peace has been missed. After the Ukrainian parliamentary elections, Russia recognized the results as legitimate will of the Ukrainian people.

But the separatists never did since those were junta elections.

A few days later, elections in the rebel controlled areas were held, and representatives elected. It was a perfect occasion for two sides to recognize each other's representatives so that proper dialogue can start. Kiev refused to do so.

Considering the way the "elections" were held that was a sensible decision. Should Ukraine have recognized the Crimean "referendum"?

Instead, Kiev proceeded to physically cut the rebel controlled areas from the rest of the country - passport control, cutting them off the budget (pensions, salaries...) and refusing to supply them with basic necessities, most importantly gas for heating.

The latter is wrong. Yatsenyuk said that they will not cut the occupied territories from gas and electricity supply for the people (some of whom surreptitiously support Ukraine) not to freeze in winter although he realizes that the services they will enjoy will not be paid for (at least so far). Experts suspect that such a decision was adopted partly because the cutting off can't be technically achieved.
As for cutting off the budget, how could you imagine the opposite? For example, a substantial part of high school and university teachers openly support DPR and proclaim themselves citizens of it - should Ukraine have them on the paylist? The same with other categories of state employees: Ukraine can't control performing their duties, so it doesn't pay them.

Now, all potential avenues for dialogue are closed, and there simply is no other options for people in Donetsk and Lugansk but to fight and try to secede. I'm hoping it won't come to that. but they have been cornered, there's no other way to go for them now.

Those who fight mostly have nothing to do with people of Luhansk and Donetsk (as I have pointed out elsewhere). But those who fight have already poclaimed their seccession and even held the elections to legitimize it. Consequently they have other reasons to go on fighting than seccession which they have already attained.

[
I think the best we can hope for now is that Ukraine is able to push the rebels back when they launch their spring offensive (the rebels have admitted it's coming).

There is no talk now of pushing back (for fear of direct Russian intervention as it was in August) but of holding the current front line. Rather it is the rebels who are pushing on (they have captured a number of checkpoints in Luhansk region since "the ceasefire" was in effect).

So, it is time for Putin to DO something…

He is doing it all the time (the reports of recent reinforcements and weapon supplies across the border come from different quarters). If you don't see it it doesn't mean it isn't there.