Ukraine Thread

[Sarmatian]

As usual, the part you chose to quote doesn't match the contents of the article.

He talks about Ukrainian military being reluctant to get involved and that first units or "raiding parties" were ultranationalists like Right Sector. If he (his unit) hadn't been involved, they would have quelled resistance quickly like they did earlier. He takes full responsibility for resisting them, which triggered the war, otherwise, ultranationalists would have just rolled over eastern Ukraine.

He also mentions that practically all of the local population was pro-Russian, that they were extremely disappointed with lack of proper support from Russia and that they were shocked when Russia rebuffed them after the referenda held.

[Strike For The South]

It's November 23rd and Validamir Putin is still a fascist

[Gilrandir]

It's November 23rd and Validamir Putin is still a fascist

I think Voldemort would sound better.

[Gilrandir]

As usual, the part you chose to quote doesn't match the contents of the article.

He talks about Ukrainian military being reluctant to get involved and that first units or "raiding parties" were ultranationalists like Right Sector. If he (his unit) hadn't been involved, they would have quelled resistance quickly like they did earlier. He takes full responsibility for resisting them, which triggered the war, otherwise, ultranationalists would have just rolled over eastern Ukraine.

He also mentions that practically all of the local population was pro-Russian, that they were extremely disappointed with lack of proper support from Russia and that they were shocked when Russia rebuffed them after the referenda held.

So triggering the war was a better solution than an imagined "ultranationalists' roll over eastern Ukraine"? I wonder what were the earlier casualties after such a roll elsewhere? Even if we consider the ones in Odesa (which were caused by the pro-Russians attacking a football fans march not by Right Sector), are they comparable to what is going on in Donbas now?
As usual, you believe any pro-Russian or (in this case) Russian, especially those who try to find a just cause for penetrating another country and starting a war there.
As usual, you are missing the whole point: even Russians admit that there wouldn't be any war in Ukraine if Russia hadn't interfered (which is what I have been saying for half a year while others were babbling about suppressed minorities with local grievances who wage a just war against Kiev nazis).

[Sarmatian]

So triggering the war was a better solution than an imagined "ultranationalists' roll over eastern Ukraine"?

Don't look at me, I'm a pacifist and not invested in any way, shape or form in the outcome, but it is generally considered that a local population providing armed resistance to an armed outside force which wants to force something on them, it's not the local population that's at fault.

I wonder what were the earlier casualties after such a roll elsewhere? Even if we consider the ones in Odesa (which were caused by the pro-Russians attacking a football fans march not by Right Sector), are they comparable to what is going on in Donbas now?
As usual, you believe any pro-Russian or (in this case) Russian, especially those who try to find a just cause for penetrating another country and starting a war there.

That's very likely not what happened, but I'm past arguing with you on that.

As usual, you are missing the whole point: even Russians admit that there wouldn't be any war in Ukraine if Russia hadn't interfered (which is what I have been saying for half a year while others were babbling about suppressed minorities with local grievances who wage a just war against Kiev nazis).

You're missing the point. There wouldn't have been WW2 if no one resisted Hitler.

[Gilrandir]

Don't look at me, I'm a pacifist and not invested in any way, shape or form in the outcome, but it is generally considered that a local population providing armed resistance to an armed outside force which wants to force something on them, it's not the local population that's at fault.

It is a good excuse - to say that no one in the world should be hurt for any cause. But reality bites - sometimes one have to sacrifice a little to avoid greater harm.
But in the disscussed case it was not the local population that started the armed resistance, but Girkin (aka Strelkov) and his GRU posse. This fact is important in seeing the real meddler and instigator of the conflict.

You're missing the point. There wouldn't have been WW2 if no one resisted Hitler.

I was speaking not of resisting but of interfering into other country's affairs. But you again seem to liken Ukrainian regime to nazis. Well, now you won't have any reason to - Svoboda has 7 seats in the newly elected parliament, Right Sector - 1 and they will not be represented in the government. You will have to invent other imaginary fears which may justify what is going on in Donbas.

[Sarmatian]

It is a good excuse - to say that no one in the world should be hurt for any cause. But reality bites - sometimes one have to sacrifice a little to avoid greater harm.
But in the disscussed case it was not the local population that started the armed resistance, but Girkin (aka Strelkov) and his GRU posse. This fact is important in seeing the real meddler and instigator of the conflict.

That's great. Why doesn't Kiev sacrifice a little pride, recognize election results and give eastern Ukraine a greater autonomy?

I was speaking not of resisting but of interfering into other country's affairs. But you again seem to liken Ukrainian regime to nazis.

I have not. I was pointing out that you can't place the blame for conflict on a side that's resisting what they perceive to be an outside threat coming into their area.

[Kralizec]

That's great. Why doesn't Kiev sacrifice a little pride, recognize election results and give eastern Ukraine a greater autonomy?

Why should Ukraine swallow their pride when the other side has so clearly breached an agreement of only several weeks old? Why should anyone recognise so called 'elections' which have not been reviewed by impartial observers and whose only purpose is to provide a fig leaf for the gang of thugs that have been in power before, during and after the event?

The Minsk agreements stipulated that Ukraine would be sovereign over those territories and that it would provide autonomy and locally elected leaders. It does not mean that Ukraine has to legalize this completely unilateral sham after the fact. The autonomy was already provided for by Ukrainian law, but withdrawn after the separatists reneged on the deal.

[Sarmatian]

Why should Ukraine swallow their pride when the other side has so clearly breached an agreement of only several weeks old? Why should anyone recognise so called 'elections' which have not been reviewed by impartial observers and whose only purpose is to provide a fig leaf for the gang of thugs that have been in power before, during and after the event?

The Minsk agreements stipulated that Ukraine would be sovereign over those territories and that it would provide autonomy and locally elected leaders. It does not mean that Ukraine has to legalize this completely unilateral sham after the fact. The autonomy was already provided for by Ukrainian law, but withdrawn after the separatists reneged on the deal.

Hardly. Minsk agreement was broken a long time before with neither side respecting ceasefire.

Ukrainian law obviously doesn't provide enough autonomy for them. So far, it was the rebels who were calling for a dialogue, and Kiev has consistently been refusing. A great chance was missed to have a dialogue, establish an acceptable level of autonomy and have new elections after that. Not only Kiev refused, they physically isolated them from the rest of the country, thus alienating even the most moderate people there.

The alternative to that is Kiev crushing them militarily, which is a laughable idea. Ukrainian foreign currency reserves are nearly depleted, their gold reserves are almost gone, hryvna losing value constantly and the Ukrainian army is still reluctant to do anything major, forcing Kiev to rely on ultranationalist paramilitary groups. They can't make a sustained effort, and even if they gain an upper hand for a short time, Russia just needs to up its support for that much.

At this point, I'd support Kiev if they could pull a clean and efficient military operation to regain control with minimal civilian casualties, but they can't even do that AND they've been consistently closing all possible avenues for dialogue. What's Kiev strategy? To physically isolate that part of the country? To starve and freeze them to compliance? Despicable. And I'm truly amazed that some people's fear or hatred of Russia stop them from seeing that. They only need to start catapulting bodies with plague to go fully medieval at this point.