Ukraine Thread

[Viking]

None of which was proven

We even have names of such Russian soldiers.

Anton Tumanov gave up his life for his country - but his country won’t say where, and it won’t say how.

His mother knows. She knows that Mr Tumanov, a 20 year-old junior sergeant in the Russian army, was killed in eastern Ukraine, torn apart in a rocket attack on August 13.

Yelena Tumanova, 41, learned these bare facts about her son’s death from one of his comrades, who saw him get hit and scooped up his body.

His death certificate, signed at a defence ministry forensic-medicine centre in Rostov-on-Don in southwest Russia on August 18, records that he died from an “explosion injury”, receiving “multiple shrapnel wounds to the lower limbs” that resulted in “acute, massive blood loss”. The certificate leaves unticked a box saying the cause of his injuries was “military hostilities”, preferring instead “origin not established”.

If 'proof' to you is Putin saying that he died there, then good luck.

[Husar]

We even have names of such Russian soldiers.

If 'proof' to you is Putin saying that he died there, then good luck.

Yeah, but it's not Putin's fault what they do there in their free time.

[Viking]

Yeah, but it's not Putin's fault what they do there in their free time.

Well, yes. It was a French beach holiday by allied soldiers that was the beginning of the end for Hitler.

[Montmorency]

Well, yes. It was a French beach holiday by allied soldiers that was the beginning of the end for Hitler.

This is proven false by the fact that the bulk of them chose Normandy over the Riviera.

[Husar]

So when in late August the separatists were beaten on all fronts and liberation of Donbas was a question of a couple of weeks (admitted by Girkin himself - sure, you believe HIM?), all of a sudden they, alone and unaided, launched a prodigious counter attack and encircled Ukrainian army at Ilovaysk, evicted them from Savur Mohyla and expelled from Luhansk, some districts of which had been already under Ukrainian control.
I saw weather(and not only weather)-beaten soldiers - and I have no reason not to trust them - who said they were negotiating withdrawal of the encircled troops with RUSSIAN OFFICERS, who were procrastinating for quite a while expecting orders "from high above", as they put it.
And earlier, the storming of the central police department in Kramatorsk was done by untrained Ukrainan rebels?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLX8KlgmUN8
I have already mentioned a special accent and a shibboleth revealing their Russian origin.
But, you are expecting Putin's speech which would directly claim the presence of his troops in Ukraine. Well, he may do it some day. In his memoirs.
As for the convoys, every time a new one arrives Ukrainian soldiers report more intense shelling of their positions. The last one was in Ukraine a couple of days ago and today the quantity of shellings was twice as much and four soldiers were killed.

Russia wants to save the russian nationals just like the US tried in Iran and so on. It's just easier for Russia when it's right next to their border. All the big nations do this if they can. Ukrainian soldiers and other government agencies are always trustworthy for you, but to think they have no agenda/reason to lie would be rather naive, no?
I could also claim that we almost had the Russians when we were in front of Moscow and then suddenly they had new men and drove us back. Maybe your army overstretched and didn't resupply properly, then blamed Russia for their failure to secure their advances. I mean there was hardly an army left at all when this conflict started, but now they're supposedly all professionals.

Yes, sure, all the tanks, BMWs, BMPs, and other vehicles as well as ammo are being mined by the separatists in weapon-rich deposits under fertile Donbas soil. Or, as an option, they constantly capture/recieve new ones from the Ukrainians, then take them to Russia and then to Ukraine again. The latter event was more than once detected by OSCE missions.

The OSCE is a NATO-tool, the "army" probably lost them or they switched sides and it's covered up with propaganda about russian involvement.

Oh yeah, remember that time when Putin said there weren't any Russian soldiers in Crimea and then admitted it. Thus, we must believe whatever he is saying and will say in future.

Here is what options Soros sees for European strategy on Ukraine (and Russia).
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/arch...escue-ukraine/

Soros is a capitalist from the US, so much about reliable sources.
Putin only sent Russian soldiers to bring security to the island after local self-defense groups had already begun by themselves.

This is proven false by the fact that the bulk of them chose Normandy over the Riviera.

A lot of the British and US soldiers probably had ancestors from there, I hear they like to trace their family trees in these countries. This could also explain why Russian soldiers go to Ukraine in their free time.

[Montmorency]

A lot of the British and US soldiers probably had ancestors from there

Don't be so Anglo-normative.

[Ice]

Husar, are you trolling? I honestly can't tell.

[Gilrandir]

Ukrainian soldiers and other government agencies are always trustworthy for you, but to think they have no agenda/reason to lie would be rather naive, no?

If the evidence comes from multiple mouths then no. People from voluntary battalions, army and intelligence gave pretty much the same picture of negotiations with Russian army officers at Ilovaysk. But, perhaps it again is no proof for you, so keep believing the outstanding ability of BMP-driven russian soldiers to lose themselves 20 km deep from the border.

I could also claim that we almost had the Russians when we were in front of Moscow and then suddenly they had new men and drove us back.

The USSR had had then the territory and human resources to draw reinforcements from. The Lugandon territory was shrinking every day, so the same logics doesn't apply here.

Maybe your army overstretched and didn't resupply properly, then blamed Russia for their failure to secure their advances.

It couldn't have happened on all fronts, especially in the south where there were NO SEPARATISTS' FORCES ALTOGETHER.

The OSCE is a NATO-tool, the "army" probably lost them or they switched sides and it's covered up with propaganda about russian involvement.

And keeps losing and losing ammo and weapons every day. And all of them brand new ones produced within the last year or two with accompanying documents referring them to certain detachments of Russian regular army. And this one also came from Ukranian depots:
https://mh17.correctiv.org/english/

Soros is a capitalist from the US, so much about reliable sources.

It is not about reliabilty, it is a reading to consider.
Perhaps, this is mor reliable for you:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...washingtonpost

[Husar]

The USSR had had then the territory and human resources to draw reinforcements from. The Lugandon territory was shrinking every day, so the same logics doesn't apply here.

the Russian terrirtory was also shrinking every day, it just wasn't shrinking fast enough, just like Lugandon wasn't shrinking fast enough before the Russians came to help.

If the evidence comes from multiple mouths then no. People from voluntary battalions, army and intelligence gave pretty much the same picture of negotiations with Russian army officers at Ilovaysk. But, perhaps it again is no proof for you, so keep believing the outstanding ability of BMP-driven russian soldiers to lose themselves 20 km deep from the border.

It couldn't have happened on all fronts, especially in the south where there were NO SEPARATISTS' FORCES ALTOGETHER.

And keeps losing and losing ammo and weapons every day. And all of them brand new ones produced within the last year or two with accompanying documents referring them to certain detachments of Russian regular army. And this one also came from Ukranian depots:
https://mh17.correctiv.org/english/

A lot of claims by NATO experts and Ukrainian soldiers, just because there are many people with good reasons to lie, there is no reason to believe their every word.

It is not about reliabilty, it is a reading to consider.
Perhaps, this is mor reliable for you:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...washingtonpost

So you admit that reliability or accuracy of information is of no concern for you?
And why would life in Russia not be great for a middle-aged, well-off straight guy?

[Kralizec]

Well, yes. It was a French beach holiday by allied soldiers that was the beginning of the end for Hitler.

Indeed. Just like how in the Korean war the communist north managed to turn the tide in the middle of the summer. Hundreds of thousands of Chinese tourists, all eager to lend a hand.

[Ironside]

Indeed. Just like how in the Korean war the communist north managed to turn the tide in the middle of the summer. Hundreds of thousands of Chinese tourists, all eager to lend a hand.

With the high command's explicit approval. Actively state employed troops doing that would be prosecuted for desertion otherwise.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

With the high command's explicit approval. Actively state employed troops doing that would be prosecuted for desertion otherwise.

But they were "volunteers!" They simply happened to volunteer in organized units inherited from the PLA. They were a separate force {see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Volunteer_Army} entirely....

[Strike For The South]

It is January 13th, 2015 and Putin is still a fascist.