Ukraine Thread

**Gilrandir** · 03-20-2015, 11:47

Originally Posted by Husar

The exercises already happened in 2014, they weren't just announced. They were partially held in connection with the Ukraine crisis, but you were the one saying that military exercises do not contribute to de-escalation, no?

I don't know what you mean by "partially in connection". The exercises had been planned and announced way back, and when the crisis hit they were proclaimed to be connected with it? Then they have nothing to do with escalation or de-escalation. They do if they were re-scheduled or the participants of them were increased in number, they were shifted to another locale (closer to the fighting zone) or they hadn't been planned before the conflict started or (most importantly) if the participants of them are universally credited to be one of the beligirents likely to take part in fighting any time soon after or during the exercises and the latter are a smoke screen to send soldiers to actual fighting. The last mentioned seems to be the case with Russia's troops. But Russia has had numerous exercises in the vicinity of Ukraine since 2014, and what is being discussed now is the ALERT STATE not the exercises. Alert states are not pre-planned.

**Gilrandir** · 03-20-2015, 11:58

http://www.radiosvoboda.org/media/video/26909782.html
I am confused - are there Russian nazis who thus salute to the Crimea liberation from nazis?

**Husar** · 03-20-2015, 12:26

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

I don't know what you mean by "partially in connection". The exercises had been planned and announced way back, and when the crisis hit they were proclaimed to be connected with it? Then they have nothing to do with escalation or de-escalation. They do if they were re-scheduled or the participants of them were increased in number, they were shifted to another locale (closer to the fighting zone) or they hadn't been planned before the conflict started or (most importantly) if the participants of them are universally credited to be one of the beligirents likely to take part in fighting any time soon after or during the exercises and the latter are a smoke screen to send soldiers to actual fighting. The last mentioned seems to be the case with Russia's troops. But Russia has had numerous exercises in the vicinity of Ukraine since 2014, and what is being discussed now is the ALERT STATE not the exercises. Alert states are not pre-planned.

Partially means that IIRC some were scheduled hastily when the Ukraine thing began, others were already scheduled before that.
And that they were scheduled before that already is part of the reason Russia felt threatened for a while already, so yes, they can contribute to escalation. Maybe you want to explain why it bothered the USA so much when Russia stationed nuclear missiles on Cuba when it was just a defensive measure in case the US would like, try to start an invasion of Cuba or something?

And Alert State can mean a lot, does it mean that their ammo is extra-lethal while they conduct the exercise or that they open their eyes a little wider?

**Gilrandir** · 03-20-2015, 12:33

Originally Posted by Husar

And that they were scheduled before that already is part of the reason Russia felt threatened for a while already, so yes, they can contribute to escalation.

Russia feels threatened and does its best to make the whole world feel threatened.

Originally Posted by Husar

Maybe you want to explain why it bothered the USA so much when Russia stationed nuclear missiles on Cuba when it was just a defensive measure in case the US would like, try to start an invasion of Cuba or something?

Were there any nuclear wepons recently stationed close enough to Russia for it to feel so much threatened?

**Brenus** · 03-20-2015, 20:21

“Were there any nuclear weapons recently stationed close enough to Russia for it to feel so much threatened?” Turkey?
http://www.nti.org/country-profiles/turkey/

Close enough?

**Husar** · 03-20-2015, 21:05

http://www.thelocal.de/20120905/44779

Germany?

**Viking** · 03-21-2015, 10:39

The solar eclipse was also visible from Ukraine.

**Gilrandir** · 03-21-2015, 15:04

Originally Posted by Brenus

“Were there any nuclear weapons recently stationed close enough to Russia for it to feel so much threatened?” Turkey?
Close enough?

Originally Posted by Husar

Germany?

The key word in my question was RECENTLY. AFAIK, Turkey got its nukes in 1961, (West) Germany in 1960. The dates surely explain why Putin is getting his hackles up in 2015.

Meanwhile, is Russia threatened or it threatens:
http://cphpost.dk/news/russian-ambas...ark.13108.html

**Gilrandir** · 03-21-2015, 15:10

http://www.unian.info/politics/45212...rade-zone.html
Will we hear anything against it from Russia?

**Husar** · 03-21-2015, 16:52

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

The key word in my question was RECENTLY. AFAIK, Turkey got its nukes in 1961, (West) Germany in 1960. The dates surely explain why Putin is getting his hackles up in 2015.

But they were RECENTLY still stationed in both countries, you didn't say that they had to be recently shipped there. My article also specified that they were RECENTLY upgraded to become more dangerous and that the plan to get rid of them here in Germany was RECENTLY revealed not to be feasible for apparently shady reasons. In fact it sounds like the US and other NATO countries RECENTLY forced Germany to keep the nukes.