Ukraine Thread

[Brenus]

Man, you gotta do something with that memory of yours - you don't even remember that at least once I reminded you of your own words:” Because you didn’t my dear.

But yours were: “ In one of your prophetic insights you said that Ukraine will be split according to cultural divides” You claimed in your pedantic way that I had an illumination (prophetic) when I agree with someone. That was a lie, as you showed it yourself. You can now as usual try to catch the branches when falling from the tree, when you’ve just invented “the fact”.

“Brilliant! You agree with the concept but you don't support it. Doublethink at its best.”: Your really have to make an effort to understand. I agree with him on the principal/concept. I sometimes agree with you, doesn’t mean I support you. He had a proposal and I agree. From your definitions: to arrive at a settlement or understanding: This one.

“Since then we have had Putin's own (and his medals) confession that he started his Crimea operation somewhere between February 20 (according to the medals) and February 22 (according to Huylo himself in the Crimea movie)” Nope. Medal never existed, and Putin just said Russia had contingency plan is case of, as all countries do. You failed again… But you probably got the habit now, so why changing?

“is outdated” And this changed the Chronology? Mob took Parliament, President fled, Ukrainian Government try to blackmail Crimea in submission, Russian troops move. The fact that Putin and Russia were ready in case changes absolutely nothing to this. And Putin move because mob took Parliament and expelled (or forced President to flee). A little bit like France and UK declared war to Germany because Germany attacked Poland. It is a reaction, not an action.

[Gilrandir]

Not as such, but both countries signed that they guarantee Dayton accord being respected, so legally they are bound to intervene if it was broken.

In practice, it doesn't mean much, but it is there.

You mean like 1994 Budapest agreement? Then it indeed doesn't mean much.

Man, you gotta do something with that memory of yours - you don't even remember that at least once I reminded you of your own words:” Because you didn’t my dear.

This one is easy to copypaste once again:

“You were the one who taught me democracy saying that to have one you must be ready to vote not FOR someone, but also AGAINST someone” When did I say this?
Voila:
Post #2412 (Ukraine-in-a-thread)

“And as for me, I don't vote against anyone, I vote for someone.” That is because you don’t have habits of democracy…
The bold is mine, then goes your line. You may check it if you don't trust me.

But yours were: “ In one of your prophetic insights you said that Ukraine will be split according to cultural divides” You claimed in your pedantic way that I had an illumination (prophetic) when I agree with someone. That was a lie, as you showed it yourself. You can now as usual try to catch the branches when falling from the tree, when you’ve just invented “the fact”.

You agree to what another said which is as good as saying it yourself - you both have a common approach to the subject.

I agree with him on the principal/concept. I sometimes agree with you, doesn’t mean I support you. He had a proposal and I agree.

I spoke not of supporting SOMEONE, but of supporting AN IDEA/CONCEPT. The latter means "agreeing to an idea/concept" (in this case the one of Ukraine split along cultural lines).

Medal never existed

This is what you said of Russian weapons in Ukraine, Russian mercenaries in Ukraine, Russian regular troops in Donbas (on a constant basis). Why, you live in the world Lavrov and Churkin have created and are still creating.

and Putin just said Russia had contingency plan is case of, as all countries do.

Did you watch the Crimea movie? Do please. After it you will love the man even more.
In it Putin said that all the night of February 22 he had been holding debates with the top brass and when he went out in the morning, the intervention was agreed upon and kicked into execution.

You failed again… But you probably got the habit now, so why changing?

You are perfectly right. It refers to your Bosnia-Ukraine comparison.

“is outdated” And this changed the Chronology?

The newly discovered developments of the year ago do change it. Now it is like this:
1. Mob took Parliament.
2. Russian troops are started into motion by Putin.
3. President fled.
4. Ukrainian Government try to blackmail Crimea in submission.
As I have said, Putin started the opeartion WHEN YANUKOVYCH WAS STILL THE PRESIDENT.

[Brenus]

This one is easy to copypaste once again:” Can do again, because you didn’t. I could explain why, and how, but it more fun like this… Re-read just what you copy and paste: Hint: My words: “ That is because you don’t have habits of democracy…” These are MY words, not your reading of them.

“You agree to what another said which is as good as saying it yourself “. Not. And your claim was I had a vision… Not that I shared someone bet (even partially). . You are sinking my dear…

“This is what you said of Russian weapons in Ukraine, Russian mercenaries in Ukraine, Russian regular troops in Donbas (on a constant basis)” I answer this lie before, re-read.

“Did you watch the Crimea movie? Do please. After it you will love the man even more.” Why should I watch a movie where a politician said he knew everything before every one? This is politician words. And where did you get the idea I love Putin? YOU have more confidence in what he said than I.

“It refers to your Bosnia-Ukraine comparison” You refuse to see the reality, like years ago… You have in theory a United State, Ukraine, and as Bosnia the Central Power has no power on some areas. And it will probably become a permanent state when finally negotiations will give a peace agreement. Reason why I agree with the bet.

“1. Mob took Parliament.
2. Russian troops are started into motion by Putin.
3. President fled.
4. Ukrainian Government try to blackmail Crimea in submission.
As I have said, Putin started the opeartion WHEN YANUKOVYCH WAS STILL THE PRESIDENT.” Nope. Moving troops doesn’t mean you start an operation. France mobilised before Germany attacked in 1914, still it was Germany that started the war. You can always stop a movement until borders are crossed. Even a little bit after. It is just a hint that Putin had better instinct than the EU/US leaders, and that the Russian Army had better contingency plans.

[Gilrandir]

“It refers to your Bosnia-Ukraine comparison” You refuse to see the reality, like years ago… You have in theory a United State, Ukraine, and as Bosnia the Central Power has no power on some areas.

It may go for a bunch of countries, starting with Japan (which doesn't control its northern territories) and finishing with India (with its uncontrolled northern territories) with Afghanistan, Yemen, Syria, Moldova, Georgia, Cyprus and others in between. This is the only similarity I see between Bosnia and Ukraine. In all other aspects the divided characters of the two countries in question have nothing in common.

Why should I watch a movie where a politician said he knew everything before every one?

To expose how manipulative he was, or to disprove it. To see if his confessions change the earlier chronology and understanding of events.
Generally speaking, if one is interested in the topic one can't disregard evidence of this kind, even if it is a biased opinion.
Well, I can't believe what I'm doing - trying to persuade others to watch a piece of Russian propaganda!

Moving troops doesn’t mean you start an operation.

Putin was quite explicit in his claim of starting "the Crimean homecoming" on the said date.

[Brenus]

“To see if his confessions” This is your problem. He is bragging, he is not ashamed of it. In using confession, you put a connotation as he pleaded guilty. No, he is trying to convince a domestic audience that he is in control and ahead of the game. Pure and simple propaganda and you bite/welcome it, because for your own propaganda, you need Putin to be evil, as simple as this. As prove (or demonstrated) by “Well, I can't believe what I'm doing - trying to persuade others to watch a piece of Russian propaganda!”. Propaganda, not piece of evidence.

“Putin was quite explicit in his claim of starting "the Crimean homecoming" on the said date.” I am sure he is, as Kosovo was a fight for democracy and Iraqis will welcome the US, and democracy will bloom in Libya… When you are in a process, better to pretend you control it than to look incompetent.

“In all other aspects the divided characters of the two countries in question have nothing in common.” Well, future will tell.

[Sarmatian]

Putin was quite explicit in his claim of starting "the Crimean homecoming" on the said date.

That is not true. I've seen the documentary in it's entirety.

According to the documentary: After Korsun Massacre/Ambush*, they realized that Crimeans are in danger. After that it is explicitly mentioned by Putin that Yanukovich, who was moving from Kharkiv to Donetsk, on the the night of 22nd of February, was in danger. Russian intelligence was sure that he was supposed to be assassinated. His motorcade was shot at, his bodyguard wounded. They moved off road to avoid further attacks. After almost entire night, Russian helicopters located the motorcade and extracted Yanukovich. By that time, Maidanistas already took control of parliament and other government buildings in Kiev. The rescuing of Yanukovich took entire night between 22nd and 23rd February. After the operation was over, around 7 AM, Febrary 23rd, Putin said to his associates that they must take into account what is happening and that they must make sure the people of Crimea are safe and that they must allowed to decide their own future in safety, whether it's staying with Ukraine or joining Russia. The first time Russian soldiers were used was February 27th, to assist local militia in taking over the airport in Simferopol.

Now, you may choose not to believe any of it, but in the documentary it is clear that Crimean operation started after it was clear that there has been a coup in Kiev.

Anyway, the documentary in its entirety, with English subtitles for those interested.

I must say, Russians are getting better and better in propaganda. It's getting to be almost as good as western propaganda. They still tend to be rather blunt, they could use a bit of subtlety.

*Funnily enough, this is the first time I've heard of Korsun massacre/ambush/pogrom. I've relied on western media for just about everything about Ukraine. I've tried googling about it, and I couldn't find anything about it in any of the major media outlets.

[Brenus]

"That is not true" I can't believe it... Gilrandir modifying the truth... I am SO disappointed... My world is collapsing...

[Husar]

"NATO is the most successful peace movement the world has ever known."

But whatever follows after NATO is done bombing a country is not NATO's responsibility, that's to blame on civilians.

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/...071002520.html

[Gilrandir]

That is not true. I've seen the documentary in it's entirety.

According to the documentary: After Korsun Massacre/Ambush*, they realized that Crimeans are in danger. After that it is explicitly mentioned by Putin that Yanukovich, who was moving from Kharkiv to Donetsk, on the the night of 22nd of February, was in danger. Russian intelligence was sure that he was supposed to be assassinated. His motorcade was shot at, his bodyguard wounded. They moved off road to avoid further attacks. After almost entire night, Russian helicopters located the motorcade and extracted Yanukovich. By that time, Maidanistas already took control of parliament and other government buildings in Kiev. The rescuing of Yanukovich took entire night between 22nd and 23rd February. After the operation was over, around 7 AM, Febrary 23rd, Putin said to his associates that they must take into account what is happening and that they must make sure the people of Crimea are safe and that they must allowed to decide their own future in safety, whether it's staying with Ukraine or joining Russia. The first time Russian soldiers were used was February 27th, to assist local militia in taking over the airport in Simferopol.

And I don't see how it refutes my claim. Read carefully what I wrote. I never claimed that the invasion was started with the appearance of little green men. More than once I said that the starting point of it was the adoption of the decision to invade. And that happened on the night between 22 and 23, when Yanukovych was still officially the president. Moreover, for quite a time (I believe until presidential elections in May) Yanukovych was considered by Russia the legal head of Ukraine, so the invasion was an illegal thing to do for Russians whether it started on 22 or 27 of February.
But again, this is if we believe Putin. I'm sure the decision has been ripening since the middle of February at the latest. I also have never heard of the massacre he metioned (in fact, this toponym doesn't belong to the Crimea, but it is an old name of Khersones which now is an archeological excavation site within Sevastopol with a few museums and a church) and attempts at assassination of Yanukovych are not proved either, same as his claims of his grandson being attacked in the kindergarten or shooting at Rybak's (the then Speaker of the Parliament) car (refuted by Rybak himself).

[Sarmatian]

Yanukovich may still be considered the legal state of Ukraine - if he's been impeached illegally, then he was still the president and there couldn't have been new presidential elections until his mandate was over.

It's acceptance of the reality. Like Kiev still considers Crimea part of Ukraine, or Belgrade Kosovo a part of Serbia, but both know better then to send army there, for instance.

You made it sound Putin admitted that operation to annex Crimea was started while Yanukovich was still in power, which wasn't true. Putin said, on morning of 23rd, that Russia must ensure that Crimea can decide its future in peace and safety. By that time Yanukovich wasn't in power or had any control, Maidan rebels seized power, although he was still legally the president.

Considering the massacre, it was pretty explicitly mentioned that, according to Kiev, there were 7 confirmed murders.

Believe or don't believe Putin, that is your prerogative. Not believing politicians is usually a safe bet, but don't twist facts to suit your agenda.