Ukraine Thread

[Sarmatian]

Putin was quite explicit in his claim of starting "the Crimean homecoming" on the said date.

That is not true. I've seen the documentary in it's entirety.

According to the documentary: After Korsun Massacre/Ambush*, they realized that Crimeans are in danger. After that it is explicitly mentioned by Putin that Yanukovich, who was moving from Kharkiv to Donetsk, on the the night of 22nd of February, was in danger. Russian intelligence was sure that he was supposed to be assassinated. His motorcade was shot at, his bodyguard wounded. They moved off road to avoid further attacks. After almost entire night, Russian helicopters located the motorcade and extracted Yanukovich. By that time, Maidanistas already took control of parliament and other government buildings in Kiev. The rescuing of Yanukovich took entire night between 22nd and 23rd February. After the operation was over, around 7 AM, Febrary 23rd, Putin said to his associates that they must take into account what is happening and that they must make sure the people of Crimea are safe and that they must allowed to decide their own future in safety, whether it's staying with Ukraine or joining Russia. The first time Russian soldiers were used was February 27th, to assist local militia in taking over the airport in Simferopol.

Now, you may choose not to believe any of it, but in the documentary it is clear that Crimean operation started after it was clear that there has been a coup in Kiev.

Anyway, the documentary in its entirety, with English subtitles for those interested.

I must say, Russians are getting better and better in propaganda. It's getting to be almost as good as western propaganda. They still tend to be rather blunt, they could use a bit of subtlety.

*Funnily enough, this is the first time I've heard of Korsun massacre/ambush/pogrom. I've relied on western media for just about everything about Ukraine. I've tried googling about it, and I couldn't find anything about it in any of the major media outlets.

[Brenus]

"That is not true" I can't believe it... Gilrandir modifying the truth... I am SO disappointed... My world is collapsing...

[Husar]

"NATO is the most successful peace movement the world has ever known."

But whatever follows after NATO is done bombing a country is not NATO's responsibility, that's to blame on civilians.

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/...071002520.html

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I need an update on the date and Putin's status regarding fascism please.

[Brenus]

"Where am I lying?" You bolt it and underlined it and then forget the "that we would only do it in case that we are absolutely certain that people that live in Crimea want it themselves." So Putin didn't launch the operation that day or date as you claimed, in: "Once again: Putin DECIDED on his Crimea operation on the night BETWEEN 22 and 23", but assessed (rightly) how the situation turned against Russia. So no "returning Crimea to motherland", but more kind of "it is turning nasty and we might will have to do something about it", according to the document (I watched only half of it at the moment, it is heavy staff).

[Brenus]

Can't stop to laugh.
http://newcoldwar.org/top-polish-mil...-ukraine-govt/

[Sarmatian]

Can't stop to laugh.
http://newcoldwar.org/top-polish-mil...-ukraine-govt/

Pathetic.

I understand that it is difficult to create nation after you've created a state, but venerating Nazi collaborators and henchmen is never a good way to start.

[Gilrandir]

That is not true. I've seen the documentary in it's entirety.

According to the documentary: After Korsun Massacre/Ambush*, they realized that Crimeans are in danger. After that it is explicitly mentioned by Putin that Yanukovich, who was moving from Kharkiv to Donetsk, on the the night of 22nd of February, was in danger. Russian intelligence was sure that he was supposed to be assassinated. His motorcade was shot at, his bodyguard wounded. They moved off road to avoid further attacks. After almost entire night, Russian helicopters located the motorcade and extracted Yanukovich. By that time, Maidanistas already took control of parliament and other government buildings in Kiev. The rescuing of Yanukovich took entire night between 22nd and 23rd February. After the operation was over, around 7 AM, Febrary 23rd, Putin said to his associates that they must take into account what is happening and that they must make sure the people of Crimea are safe and that they must allowed to decide their own future in safety, whether it's staying with Ukraine or joining Russia. The first time Russian soldiers were used was February 27th, to assist local militia in taking over the airport in Simferopol.

And I don't see how it refutes my claim. Read carefully what I wrote. I never claimed that the invasion was started with the appearance of little green men. More than once I said that the starting point of it was the adoption of the decision to invade. And that happened on the night between 22 and 23, when Yanukovych was still officially the president. Moreover, for quite a time (I believe until presidential elections in May) Yanukovych was considered by Russia the legal head of Ukraine, so the invasion was an illegal thing to do for Russians whether it started on 22 or 27 of February.
But again, this is if we believe Putin. I'm sure the decision has been ripening since the middle of February at the latest. I also have never heard of the massacre he metioned (in fact, this toponym doesn't belong to the Crimea, but it is an old name of Khersones which now is an archeological excavation site within Sevastopol with a few museums and a church) and attempts at assassination of Yanukovych are not proved either, same as his claims of his grandson being attacked in the kindergarten or shooting at Rybak's (the then Speaker of the Parliament) car (refuted by Rybak himself).

[Sarmatian]

Yanukovich may still be considered the legal state of Ukraine - if he's been impeached illegally, then he was still the president and there couldn't have been new presidential elections until his mandate was over.

It's acceptance of the reality. Like Kiev still considers Crimea part of Ukraine, or Belgrade Kosovo a part of Serbia, but both know better then to send army there, for instance.

You made it sound Putin admitted that operation to annex Crimea was started while Yanukovich was still in power, which wasn't true. Putin said, on morning of 23rd, that Russia must ensure that Crimea can decide its future in peace and safety. By that time Yanukovich wasn't in power or had any control, Maidan rebels seized power, although he was still legally the president.

Considering the massacre, it was pretty explicitly mentioned that, according to Kiev, there were 7 confirmed murders.

Believe or don't believe Putin, that is your prerogative. Not believing politicians is usually a safe bet, but don't twist facts to suit your agenda.

[Gilrandir]

Yanukovich may still be considered the legal state of Ukraine - if he's been impeached illegally, then he was still the president and there couldn't have been new presidential elections until his mandate was over.

Same as Nikolai II's heirs are still the legal rulers of Russia. If we try to recall all the leaders removed from power after a procedure with dubious legality we may have a really long dispute on how legal are those that came to supplant them.

You made it sound Putin admitted that operation to annex Crimea was started while Yanukovich was still in power, which wasn't true.
Believe or don't believe Putin, that is your prerogative. Not believing politicians is usually a safe bet, but don't twist facts to suit your agenda.

1. You don't seem to trust Putin in his claims yourself yet you call them "facts". WTF i.e. what the fact?
2. Where did I twist them? Here are "the facts":
Putin admitted that the operation started on a certain date. Period. According to all available timelines Yanukovych was still unimpeached on that date. Period. It doesn't take much effort to match the two and make a conclusion.

Considering the massacre, it was pretty explicitly mentioned that, according to Kiev, there were 7 confirmed murders.

Still have no idea where Korsun with the mentioned massacre is situated. The source, please.

[Brenus]

"Same as Nikolai II's heirs are still the legal rulers of Russia." Nicolai II abdicated 15-Mar-1917 to his brother who refused the throne. A perfectly valid and legal move.

There you go:
http://ukraine-human-rights.org/enc/...ations/murder/

And what official ukrainian side says about it:http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv...eo-383832.html

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

"Same as Nikolai II's heirs are still the legal rulers of Russia." Nicolai II abdicated 15-Mar-1917 to his brother who refused the throne. A perfectly valid and legal move.

There you go:
http://ukraine-human-rights.org/enc/...ations/murder/

And what official ukrainian side says about it:http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv...eo-383832.html

Point of Order - one cannot perform any "legal" move under duress, and Nicholas II was facing rebellion and threats to his life, so he was under duress.

[Brenus]

"Point of Order - one cannot perform any "legal" move under duress, and Nicholas II was facing rebellion and threats to his life, so he was under duress."
Point of Order: All legal moves are done under duress, i.e. home repossession, debts collection, jail sentences etc. So, the legality (and the duress of it) of an action is defined by the law. Nicolas not being able to have his train moved and his troops shooting at the rebellious plebe made a legal move, gave the Crown to his brother. He was not under duress, but just saw his own failure and tried to solve it. Or are you suggesting that his brother threatened him?

[Sarmatian]

1. You don't seem to trust Putin in his claims yourself yet you call them "facts". WTF i.e. what the fact?

I tend to distrust politicians as a rule. Putin's no exception.

The facts I'm mentioning is what is shown in the documentary. I'm not discussing what really happened, only what documentary said.

2. Where did I twist them? Here are "the facts":
Putin admitted that the operation started on a certain date. Period. According to all available timelines Yanukovych was still unimpeached on that date. Period. It doesn't take much effort to match the two and make a conclusion.

You said Putin started an operation to annex Crimea on 22nd while Yanukovich was still in power. According to you, he said that in the documentary. That is not true.

1) He said that Russia must ensure Crimeans decide their own fate, whatever that is, in peace and safety
2) He said it on the 23rd
3) Yanukovich was no longer in power.

Still have no idea where Korsun with the mentioned massacre is situated. The source, please.

The only thing I know about it is what I heard from the documentary and the link Brenus provided. There are very little sources about it. It's like it's been ignored on purpose. There's not even the usual "according to unverified sources from Russia and Crimea, an incident supposedly took place... blah, blah, blah...". Very weird.

[Brenus]

Korsun is not really documented but https://consortiumnews.com/2014/05/1...testers-alive/ is. So, not to brush aside too fast Putin's claim.

"in fact, this toponym doesn't belong to the Crimea"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Korsu%C5%84

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...erkassy_Pocket

[Gilrandir]

“s prove (or demonstrated) by “Well, I can't believe what I'm doing - trying to persuade others to watch a piece of Russian propaganda!”. Propaganda, not piece of evidence.

Yet you watch RT and somehow don't mind the propaganda there, so I don't see the reason of being so apprehensive to other propaganda pieces.

You said Putin started an operation to annex Crimea on 22nd while Yanukovich was still in power. According to you, he said that in the documentary. That is not true.
1) He said that Russia must ensure Crimeans decide their own fate, whatever that is, in peace and safety
2) He said it on the 23rd
3) Yanukovich was no longer in power.

Once again: Putin DECIDED on his Crimea operation on the night BETWEEN 22 and 23 (and proclaimed it on the 23) when Yanukovych was still the president.
But whatever the date might be, another confession of his is more important. Putin admitted that Russian regular troops were instrumental in the annexation, while before he at first gainsaid it, then he said his notorious phrase about Russian soldiers "behind the backs of the locals" (which you interpreted as metaphor) and a year later he spilt out the truth. So much for his gainsaying the presence of Russian troops in Donbas now.

There you go:
http://ukraine-human-rights.org/enc/...ations/murder/

Did you watch it? I wonder what you as a specialist in manipulative techniques think of it.

"in fact, this toponym doesn't belong to the Crimea"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Korsu%C5%84
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...erkassy_Pocket

This is what we learn at school and the town is within an easy reach from my residence so I visited it once. There's a museum there dealing with the WWII.