Ukraine Thread

[Gilrandir]

“s prove (or demonstrated) by “Well, I can't believe what I'm doing - trying to persuade others to watch a piece of Russian propaganda!”. Propaganda, not piece of evidence.

Yet you watch RT and somehow don't mind the propaganda there, so I don't see the reason of being so apprehensive to other propaganda pieces.

You said Putin started an operation to annex Crimea on 22nd while Yanukovich was still in power. According to you, he said that in the documentary. That is not true.
1) He said that Russia must ensure Crimeans decide their own fate, whatever that is, in peace and safety
2) He said it on the 23rd
3) Yanukovich was no longer in power.

Once again: Putin DECIDED on his Crimea operation on the night BETWEEN 22 and 23 (and proclaimed it on the 23) when Yanukovych was still the president.
But whatever the date might be, another confession of his is more important. Putin admitted that Russian regular troops were instrumental in the annexation, while before he at first gainsaid it, then he said his notorious phrase about Russian soldiers "behind the backs of the locals" (which you interpreted as metaphor) and a year later he spilt out the truth. So much for his gainsaying the presence of Russian troops in Donbas now.

There you go:
http://ukraine-human-rights.org/enc/...ations/murder/

Did you watch it? I wonder what you as a specialist in manipulative techniques think of it.

"in fact, this toponym doesn't belong to the Crimea"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Korsu%C5%84
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...erkassy_Pocket

This is what we learn at school and the town is within an easy reach from my residence so I visited it once. There's a museum there dealing with the WWII.

[Sarmatian]

Once again: Putin DECIDED on his Crimea operation on the night BETWEEN 22 and 23 (and proclaimed it on the 23) when Yanukovych was still the president.

Are you talking about what you think happened in reality or what Putin said in the documentary? If you're talking about the former, you may be right, but if you're talking about the latter, that's not true.

But whatever the date might be, another confession of his is more important. Putin admitted that Russian regular troops were instrumental in the annexation, while before he at first gainsaid it, then he said his notorious phrase about Russian soldiers "behind the backs of the locals" (which you interpreted as metaphor) and a year later he spilt out the truth. So much for his gainsaying the presence of Russian troops in Donbas now.

Putin admitted that Russian troops already stationed in Crimea were used to maintain peace and security.

I never said those troops weren't Russian regulars, just that we couldn't know if they were and that "we've got their backs" doesn't necessarily mean literally boots on the ground.

I was actually always of the thought that those troops are either current or former Russian professionals, or, at the very least, locals backed by Moscow. I was also of the opinion that any of that wouldn't have been possible if the vast majority of the population wasn't in favour of it.

Even recent polls conducted by western agencies show over 80% of Crimeans support joining Russia.

[Gilrandir]

Are you talking about what you think happened in reality or what Putin said in the documentary? If you're talking about the former, you may be right, but if you're talking about the latter, that's not true.

It is 1.55-2.20 in the movie when Putin after his night conference with the top brass (on rescuing Yanukovych) at their parting in the morning of 23 at 7 a.m. told them that they would start working on returning the Crimea to Russia.
And as for troops, he admitted what he had been vehemently gainsaying for a year.

[Brenus]

“Yet you watch RT” So? I watch BBC, France 24 and other Channels, all monuments of anti-Russian propaganda and dis/mis-informations. I apply for them the same treatment to each, a careful scepticism.

“somehow don't mind the propaganda” Who told you that? Do you have evidence of this? I am careful to put link from RT, and do it only when there are none from others sites.

“Did you watch it? I wonder what you as a specialist in manipulative techniques think of it.” I did, reason why I never linked it before.

[Sarmatian]

It is 1.55-2.20 in the movie when Putin after his night conference with the top brass (on rescuing Yanukovych) at their parting in the morning of 23 at 7 a.m. told them that they would start working on returning the Crimea to Russia.
And as for troops, he admitted what he had been vehemently gainsaying for a year.

I don't know if you had actually seen the entire documentary - that was a small part of a much longer conversation, but shown at the beginning for the WOW factor. That part of the conversation happens around halfway through the documentary where he goes about it at greater length and explains his position fully.

[Gilrandir]

I don't know if you had actually seen the entire documentary - that was a small part of a much longer conversation, but shown at the beginning for the WOW factor. That part of the conversation happens around halfway through the documentary where he goes about it at greater length and explains his position fully.

I watched the whole of it. He said what he said whatever may follow or whatever effect it was meant to produce. The fact holds: at 7 a.m. February 23 he proclaimed he "was bringing the Crimea home" on which he decided the night before. And you said I was lying. Your reading of his words again smacks of weaseling out you had applied interpreting his "soldiers' backs" phrase although you seem to dislike that tactics so much.

[Sarmatian]

I watched the whole of it. He said what he said whatever may follow or whatever effect it was meant to produce. The fact holds: at 7 a.m. February 23 he proclaimed he "was bringing the Crimea home" on which he decided the night before. And you said I was lying. Your reading of his words again smacks of weaseling out you had applied interpreting his "soldiers' backs" phrase although you seem to dislike that tactics so much.

You are lying. I'm just not sure if you're doing it on purpose or if you aren't fully aware of it.

Transcript from 1:50 to 3:12 (Putin speaking continuously)

"At 7am, (February 23rd) I've told to my 4 associates: The situation in Ukraine has turned out in such a way that we are forced to begin work on returning Crimea to Russia. Because we can not let the territory and the people there adrift under steamroller of nationalists. And I have set certain tasks and outlined what needs to be done and how. And I have to stress right away, that we would only do it in case that we are absolutely certain that people that live in Crimea want it themselves. We had to give a chance for people to express their opinion. That was our goal, frankly speaking. I thought to myself, that if people want it, so be it. They would have certain additional rights, wider autonomy, but within Ukraine. So be it than. But if they want to go the other way, we can not let them down."

[Gilrandir]

You are lying. I'm just not sure if you're doing it on purpose or if you aren't fully aware of it.

Transcript from 1:50 to 3:12 (Putin speaking continuously)

"At 7am, (February 23rd) I've told to my 4 associates: The situation in Ukraine has turned out in such a way that we are forced to begin work on returning Crimea to Russia. Because we can not let the territory and the people there adrift under steamroller of nationalists. And I have set certain tasks and outlined what needs to be done and how. And I have to stress right away, that we would only do it in case that we are absolutely certain that people that live in Crimea want it themselves. We had to give a chance for people to express their opinion. That was our goal, frankly speaking. I thought to myself, that if people want it, so be it. They would have certain additional rights, wider autonomy, but within Ukraine. So be it than. But if they want to go the other way, we can not let them down."

Where am I lying?