Ukraine Thread

[Gilrandir]

“As I have said, others of more practical set of mind developed the ideas of the Manifesto or introduced their own.” Agree. However, your first proposition was to equal My Kampf and The Communist Manifesto.

I equalled or pointed to similar tenets in the ideologies, each of which has its cornerstone books as a starting point.

“To genocide - no. To classocide - yes.” Not really the same thing no? The Aristocratic Class is forbidden in USA, doesn’t means they kill the UK Royal Family as soon they put a foot of the grounds of USA.
Nobility was abolished by Louis the XVI ins a (vain) attempt to stop the Revolution, and he didn’t kill the Aristocrats…

You don't see the difference between "abolish/forbid" and "removing as a class by political and socio-economic measures: confiscating their assests, putting them to socially-useful work, and applying punishment, up to the death penalty"? Did the USA and France use the same "measures"? In my opinion, they point to classocide.

[Brenus]

“I equalled or pointed to similar tenets in the ideologies, each of which has its cornerstone books as a starting point.” No you didn’t. I said there is no equivalent Communists My Kampf. You created a link to a document written in 1848 as Political Platform for Parties that really started to exist in the 1920’s (kind of 60/70 years after mind you).
As the similarities, I really don’t see them, except artificially created, as all opponents (ill-informed ones) always do. You can probably find similarity between My Kampf and the Scouts as they are both like fire camps, boys and girls enjoying sports and outdoor activities…

“You don't see the difference between "abolish/forbid" and "removing as a class by political and socio-economic measures: confiscating their assests, putting them to socially-useful work, and applying punishment, up to the death penalty"? “ Where are these things you describe are contain in the Communist Manifesto?
It is just stating the evidence which is when a Class (or workers) are not anymore needed or are obsolete, they vanished. When I was a kid we had a blacksmith and a wooden shoes maker in the village. They disappeared when I was a teenager… No confiscation, no murder or others hardship measures, just the fact they were not anymore needed/adequate. So, in an all-equal society, the class “Bourgeoisie” having finished in it social role would just vanish.

“Did the USA and France use the same "measures"? In my opinion, they point to classocide.” Don’t know for USA (but I give you that the Class “Slave-owner” did disappear violently), in France it went like this: The “Etats Généraux” were made of three Chambers divided following St Augustin principles: The Nobility (the warriors), the Clergy (the Priests) and the Tiers Etat (the one who feed the 2 others). The French Assembly went for a representation by elections, so the 2 others classes did vanish.
If the King Louis the XVI would be smarter, it should have stay there.
Due to his lack of political finesse; the Kingdom was abolished and the 1st Republic proclaimed (well, not really but de facto), and all the civil wars and foreign wars that ended not in 1815, but for real at the proclamation of the III Republic (1871).

[Gilrandir]

“The difference is in those people - nazism blames (certain) nations, communism - (certain) social classes.” That is true but not totally true. One ideology in based on racism and murder, conquest of vital space, and the idea that one race is superior, when the other is for equality and all men born equal. I speak of the ideology, not the implementation…

Ideology of Communism has some similar features:exporting socialist revolution (which can be equated to expanding the ideoligically friendly space), superiority of one social group (proletariat), annihilation of class enemies and their minions.

"Ideology of Communism has some similar features:exporting socialist revolution (which can be equated to expanding the ideoligically friendly space), superiority of one social group (proletariat), annihilation of class enemies and their minions." Nope. There is no equivalent in Communist Ideology of My Kampf.

“As I have said, others of more practical set of mind developed the ideas of the Manifesto or introduced their own.” Agree. However, your first proposition was to equal My Kampf and The Communist Manifesto.

“I equalled or pointed to similar tenets in the ideologies, each of which has its cornerstone books as a starting point.” No you didn’t.

You really should do something with the memory or refer to the earlier posts.
As you can see, we started our discussion with IDEOLOGIES and only three posts later you brought up Mein Kampf. Thus comparing fundamental (foundational) treatises was done for highlighting/specifying the comparison of ideologies.

You can probably find similarity between My Kampf and the Scouts as they are both like fire camps, boys and girls enjoying sports and outdoor activities…

Flawed comparison. You can't compare a book and an organization. You may do it with Hitlerjugend and Scouts, if you wish.

“You don't see the difference between "abolish/forbid" and "removing as a class by political and socio-economic measures: confiscating their assests, putting them to socially-useful work, and applying punishment, up to the death penalty"? “ Where are these things you describe are contain in the Communist Manifesto?

As I have shown, they are basic tenets of communist IDEOLOGY. And we are still comparing ideologies.

It is just stating the evidence which is when a Class (or workers) are not anymore needed or are obsolete, they vanished. When I was a kid we had a blacksmith and a wooden shoes maker in the village. They disappeared when I was a teenager… No confiscation, no murder or others hardship measures, just the fact they were not anymore needed/adequate. So, in an all-equal society, the class “Bourgeoisie” having finished in it social role would just vanish.

Once again: communist ideology (as expounded by Lenin and Stalin) insists on annihilation of a social class by violent methods. It was not just "wait until they become extinct in the process of evolution" or "bereave them of their title and they are not nobility any more" (as your examples tend to show), but "confiscate their assests, put them to socially-useful work, and apply punishment, up to the death penalty". If it is not a call to eradicating a whole strata of population, try to replace "bourgeoisie" with "jews" and see if it works out to be a kind of ?-cide.

“Did the USA and France use the same "measures"? In my opinion, they point to classocide.” Don’t know for USA (but I give you that the Class “Slave-owner” did disappear violently), in France it went like this: The “Etats Généraux” were made of three Chambers divided following St Augustin principles: The Nobility (the warriors), the Clergy (the Priests) and the Tiers Etat (the one who feed the 2 others). The French Assembly went for a representation by elections, so the 2 others classes did vanish.
If the King Louis the XVI would be smarter, it should have stay there.
Due to his lack of political finesse; the Kingdom was abolished and the 1st Republic proclaimed (well, not really but de facto), and all the civil wars and foreign wars that ended not in 1815, but for real at the proclamation of the III Republic (1871).

Classes can't disappear after a decree was issued. A group of people was stopped to be CALLED in a certain way, but the PEOPLE didn't disappear. Communists wanted to send both the NAME and the PEOPLE into oblivion.

[Brenus]

“As I have shown” You have shown nothing. I can give you it is difficult as there is no “Communist” My Kampf. You just can describe various episodes of the USRR and others in order to sustain your claim.

“communist IDEOLOGY” You are just plain wrong. What the Communist Manifesto is describing is a consequence, not a tool.

“Communists wanted to send both the NAME and the PEOPLE into oblivion.” Your readings of it (and Lenin and Stalin), not what the Communist Manifesto tells.

“communist ideology (as expounded by Lenin and Stalin)” Communist Ideology is not define by the two you named, who were as well dictators. So what is part of Dictatorship and Ideology? In Nazism, you don’t have the same problem as Nazism is Dictatorship.

“Flawed comparison. You can't compare a book and an organization. You may do it with Hitlerjugend and Scouts, if you wish.” Well, it is what you do, I just return the favour. You pretend because superficial similarities that Communist Ideology and Nazi Ideology are similar (I know, it is not what you are actually writing, but deeper we go in this exchange, it looks like it is the direction you are aiming to). So I choose an example to show you can do this to each organisation.

“You really should do something with the memory or refer to the earlier posts.” It is because you are a little bit chaotic, so I have to remind you of what you wrote. "Ideology of Communism has some similar features:exporting socialist revolution (which can be equated to expanding the ideoligically friendly space), superiority of one social group (proletariat), annihilation of class enemies and their minions."
My answer to this was: “Nope. There is no equivalent in Communist Ideology of My Kampf. Nazism is quite unique in this (well, excepted of course the main 3 monotheistic religions, and probably the polytheistic as well, but I am not sure of the last ones).”
Note that you did cut the part on others violent and aggressive ideologies having much more in common with Nazism than Communism.
You still fail to define the Communist Ideology, as obviously to retract rightly from the idea of the Communist Manifesto could play this role. Just in France, the Anarchist movement produced a lot of literature and ideas about what Communism is/was about (i.e. Manifesto of the Equals (1796)). And the same can be said for the Socialist Movement and indeed the Communist Movement.

"Classes can't disappear after a decree was issued" Really? I just gave you an exemple when one, Nobility, just did.

[Gilrandir]

“As I have shown” You have shown nothing. I can give you it is difficult as there is no “Communist” My Kampf. You just can describe various episodes of the USRR and others in order to sustain your claim.

“communist IDEOLOGY” You are just plain wrong. What the Communist Manifesto is describing is a consequence, not a tool.

“Communists wanted to send both the NAME and the PEOPLE into oblivion.” Your readings of it (and Lenin and Stalin), not what the Communist Manifesto tells.

“communist ideology (as expounded by Lenin and Stalin)” Communist Ideology is not define by the two you named, who were as well dictators. So what is part of Dictatorship and Ideology? In Nazism, you don’t have the same problem as Nazism is Dictatorship.

“You really should do something with the memory or refer to the earlier posts.” It is because you are a little bit chaotic, so I have to remind you of what you wrote. "Ideology of Communism has some similar features:exporting socialist revolution (which can be equated to expanding the ideoligically friendly space), superiority of one social group (proletariat), annihilation of class enemies and their minions."
My answer to this was: “Nope. There is no equivalent in Communist Ideology of My Kampf. Nazism is quite unique in this (well, excepted of course the main 3 monotheistic religions, and probably the polytheistic as well, but I am not sure of the last ones).”
Note that you did cut the part on others violent and aggressive ideologies having much more in common with Nazism than Communism.
You still fail to define the Communist Ideology, as obviously to retract rightly from the idea of the Communist Manifesto could play this role. Just in France, the Anarchist movement produced a lot of literature and ideas about what Communism is/was about (i.e. Manifesto of the Equals (1796)). And the same can be said for the Socialist Movement and indeed the Communist Movement.

Either you don't really understand (as you like to say) or you choose to pretend to.
My final word in this argument:
We started to compare IDEOLOGIES. Ideologies ARE NOT EXHAUSTED/LIMITED by the premises in the books we referred to since they (ideologies) encompass MORE IDEAS than those forwarded in the books (at least this is true for communism, since I don't know much of other basic treatises of nazism if there are any). The ideological background of communism (expounded in works by Marx, Engels, Trotsky, Lenin, Stalin and perhaps others) contains at least some similar tenets (those that ultimately lead to gruesome consequences) to those expressed in Mein Kampf. Period.

"Classes can't disappear after a decree was issued" Really? I just gave you an exemple when one, Nobility, just did.

So all the nobles were killed? No. They STOPPED BEING CALLED nobles, but they lived on (at least those that were not executed). Just like slave-owners in America in 1865 stopped owning slaves, but lived on.
In the USSR the communist party (guiding itself by the basic tenets forwarded by Lenin and Stalin) started annihilating PEOPLE who were considered bourgeoisie. For example, during collectivisation rich peasants (Russian kulaki) who were included into "petty bourgeoisie" were exiled to Siberia with their families just because they were richer than others. If they expressed dissatisfaction they were proclaimed "people's enemies who resisted the dictatorship of the proletariat" and consequently executed. Those that obeyed very often died on the way or starved to death at their destination. It is very vividly described in Sholokhov's Virgin Soil Upturned and this is what I termed classocide.
Later this tactics (under similar accusation) was repeated to attempt genocide of Tatars or Volga Germans.

[Gilrandir]

Speaking of nazis and communists. Apparently I didn't watch the British documentary too carefully. But it appears that when I claimed that Germans in 1939-1940 used Murmansk airdfield to deploy their planes later used in bombing Norway it wasn't a wild shot. I was mistaken in the kind of troops and used rented facilities. It was a naval base near Murmansk that was placed at Gemany's disposal and evidently was instrumenal in conquering Norway.

https://books.google.com.ua/books?id...rmansk&f=false

http://www.uboat.net/forums/read.php...,28676,quote=1

So basically I was right about close military cooperation between nazis and communists at the outset of WWII.

[Sarmatian]

So basically I was right about close military cooperation between nazis and communists at the outset of WWII.

No you were not.

Soviets were neutral in 1939-1940 and their ports were open. German (and French or British) ships could enter those ports. The particular importance of that particular port was that it was small and remote enough and that German ships could dock there and there was little chance they would spied upon or their ships sabotaged. They could have just as well docked in Murmansk or Leningrad...

That is not the proof of close military cooperation. The fact that Graf Spee docked in Montevideo doesn't mean the Germany and Uruguay had close military cooperation.