Ukraine Thread

[Brenus]

Well done. You know all your propaganda.

[Montmorency]

"And you said you were against massive bailouts and oversized influence of banks and corporations in the international system" And?

So you want things to be different, but you don't want to work to change them?

It seems strange that you plead that you consider both major sides in the Ukraine issue to be equivalent yet constantly pick on one side over the other, even though this one side has clearly been less militant than the other; furthermore, the rebels are only supported by 10% of the population, which makes things rather...lopsided.

Oh? I didn't know he was not re-elected in fair election. I though he fled after a mob took the Parliament by storm then went to the official residence to get him. I perfectly remember seeing this on TV. I think he run for his life, but perhaps the mob just wanted to, err, not kill him.

Of course, this sort of thinking would delegitimize virtually all revolts in history. But meanwhile, Yanukovuch fled the country, not just the city. People tend to do that once they've lost the confidence of almost everyone - including his usual Eastern-Ukrainian backers.

Some bloody leftist you are.

[Brenus]

"So you want things to be different, but you don't want to work to change them?" Sorry. I still don't get it. What are saying? What is the link between being again borders and against bail-out?

"Of course, this sort of thinking would delegitimize virtually all revolts in history." It was not necessary as an agreement has been reach thanks to the EU mediation. Th Coup was a successful attempt to rob the crowd of its victory by Nazi and it worked. Then the rest is histories.

"Some bloody leftist you are." Explain.

"People tend to do that once they've lost the confidence of almost everyone" And when mob want to kill them.

[Montmorency]

Sorry. I still don't get it. What are saying? What is the link between being again borders and against bail-out?

If a bad peace is better than a good war, then clearly it is incumbent upon citizens to endure anything to which they are subjected by governments and institutions, in perpetuity. I do not think you could maintain this position without undermining your entire life's ideology, not least all the comments you've made in this thread.

Th Coup was a successful attempt to rob the crowd of its victory by Nazi and it worked.

So you're saying that Yanukovych ran a coalition of fascists who then turned on him in order to take advantage of the public? Otherwise, it's difficult to see what connection your notion has to anything. The right wing opposition has only lost influence in the past 2 years. In fact, the height of their power was reached under Yanukovych's oversight.

"Some bloody leftist you are." Explain.

Your position on Ukraine in these threads seems to suggest that, as the United States and most European countries permit far-rightists to participate in the political process, these are not legitimate democracies and their citizens should be disenfranchised in order to prevent the possibility of fascists gaining political power. So why single out Ukraine?

And when mob want to kill them.

So literally everyone in the country wanted him dead? In that case, yeah, then it's probably easy to predict that someone will be coming for you soon - which is also probably why he began packing his bags before the vote on his removal was even taken.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

If a bad peace is better than a good war, then clearly it is incumbent upon citizens to endure anything to which they are subjected by governments and institutions, in perpetuity. I do not think you could maintain this position without undermining your entire life's ideology, not least all the comments you've made in this thread.



So you're saying that Yanukovych ran a coalition of fascists who then turned on him in order to take advantage of the public? Otherwise, it's difficult to see what connection your notion has to anything. The right wing opposition has only lost influence in the past 2 years. In fact, the height of their power was reached under Yanukovych's oversight.



Your position on Ukraine in these threads seems to suggest that, as the United States and most European countries permit far-rightists to participate in the political process, these are not legitimate democracies and their citizens should be disenfranchised in order to prevent the possibility of fascists gaining political power. So why single out Ukraine?



So literally everyone in the country wanted him dead? In that case, yeah, then it's probably easy to predict that someone will be coming for you soon - which is also probably why he began packing his bags before the vote on his removal was even taken.

This pretty much covers everything wrong with Brenus position -

A few right-wing fascists in the protests and it's a "Nazi coup"

Saint Paul said we should endure whatever the state inflicts upon us because the state's power is bestowed by God - he also said the Old Testament was infallible and the only useful guide to life, so he didn't know all that much about the real world.

[Brenus]

“If a bad peace is better than a good war, then clearly it is incumbent upon citizens to endure anything to which they are subjected by governments and institutions, in perpetuity.” Sorry? In Ukraine, the war started because a fringe of Nazi decided the negotiated agreement were not good enough and stormed the Parliament. Now, you are saying it is better to kill people than negotiate, well, that is your opinion, not mine.

“So you're saying that Yanukovych ran a coalition of fascists who then turned on him in order to take advantage of the public?” No, that is what you are saying because whatever theory you believe in. I am saying that the social unrest was high jacked by Nazi, followed by very bad decisions which lead to a revolt in some parts of Ukraine and an annexation of part of its territory. And now you have a de-facto partition. The constant denial of the like Gilrandir didn’t help (mercenaries, foreign troops, columns of tanks rolling to Warsaw, sorry Berlin, etc.), nor the loud voices from NATO and EU for military solution (mopping-up was words used in this forum). My point always has been nobody really forecasted what would happen and everybody just reacted to events they lost control on. Yanukovych just do what he thinks is best for him within a coalition. I am not a “conspirationist” unlike some here, so no I don’t think Yanukovych used the Nazi fringe, but exploited the created situation at his tactical advantage.

“So why single out Ukraine?” Because we are speaking of Ukraine here, not of Croatia, or others Baltic States/former Communist Eastern Countries?

“these are not legitimate democracies” If they accept ideologies which are against the Human Right Declaration, they are not. You will find out I have the same opinion about Religions.

“So literally everyone in the country wanted him dead?” Really? Few hundred is largely enough to make a real threat I imagine.

I don’t know from where you find your figures, but please avoid to blame me for your statements or opinions.

“Saint Paul said we should endure whatever the state inflicts upon us because the state's power is bestowed by God - he also said the Old Testament was infallible and the only useful guide to life, so he didn't know all that much about the real world.”

[Montmorency]

Sorry? In Ukraine, the war started because a fringe of Nazi decided the negotiated agreement were not good enough and stormed the Parliament. Now, you are saying it is better to kill people than negotiate, well, that is your opinion, not mine.

That did not happen as you describe it. They broke into the parliament at night and started breaking stuff. Afterward, they gathered around the parliament and did nothing but agitate. Probably because there were only a few thousand of them in the entire country - not enough to affect events to any degree. At any rate, afterward the Right Sector was neutered as a political force and by now almost all of its current and former membership are pre-occupied with directly engaging the separatists in combat.

I am saying that the social unrest was high jacked by Nazi

How? What goals of theirs have actually been achieved that were not also goals of the Maidan movement in general? As I said, the far-right overall has only lost influence since the end of the old regime.

followed by very bad decisions which lead to a revolt in some parts of Ukraine and an annexation of part of its territory.

I don't think any particular decision of EuroMaidan had anything to do with the annexation of Crimea or the armed uprising in the Donbass. These were just long-standing geopolitical failsafes that Russia triggered to weaken the new Ukrainian government and show resolve to the West. If a few thousand Neo-Nazis were such a threat to Ukraine or Russia that these acts would have been taken as snap decisions, then why was it never a problem before 2014?

After all, most of the pro-Russian fighters in Ukraine now were political fascists themselves, and Russia has been notorious for its Neo-Nazi groups and gangs since the collapse of the Soviet Union.

If they accept ideologies which are against the Human Right Declaration, they are not.

So the "liberal democracies" of the world are not in fact democracies, and you're cool with that? You'd be living in one right now: the UK.