Ukraine Thread

**Gilrandir** · 06-07-2015, 15:59

Originally Posted by Husar

There you have it, we can all calm down now.

I'm not sure if you are serious. To believe Putin? You must be smarter than that.

**Greyblades** · 06-07-2015, 16:18

We're not afraid of Russia attacking Nato, we're worried Russia will attack someone outside of it that we actually care about.

**Husar** · 06-07-2015, 19:55

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

I'm not sure if you are serious. To believe Putin? You must be smarter than that.

So you think he would actually attack NATO?

Originally Posted by Greyblades

We're not afraid of Russia attacking Nato, we're worried Russia will attack someone outside of it that we actually care about.

China is a bit too big and the Middle East too far away. Who else would we care about now that our sweatshops and our oil rigs are out of the question?

**Montmorency** · 06-07-2015, 20:40

I say Russia can have Ukraine and Belarus if they evacuate Kaliningrad and give over the land to the sole ownership of the European Union.

Then the new EU capital province of Euro-Prussia can become a super-industrial state populated by hardcore unionists.

By 2050, the matter will be simple: integrate into a federalized European Union, or fight for your independence. Fighting alone would be impossible, so the only way to defeat the European Union would be to become client state of the US - or form an EU 2.0. Either way, we come that much closer to OWG.

...

'Scuse me, too much of the product again...

**Brenus** · 06-07-2015, 22:05

“Having these considerations in mind and trying to put oneself in his place makes me wish to forgive such a man defending his native land against all odds.” And killing Jews was helping in doing what? No, sorry, this man was and is still and for ever a war criminal and scum.

What pipelines do you mean? The South Stream was suspended indefinitely, any others are still only nascent projects so far from implementation, that it is precarious to speak of them being "secured".
Apparently, I am not the only one with this idea:

http://www.theguardian.com/environme...vals-pipelines
http://qha.com.ua/crimean-enterprise...-119164en.html
Plus a bonus
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/18/wo...-reserves.html

“And you call it a strategic victory?” Yeap, considering without it Russia would have NATO’s troops directly at one very long border more. And Ukraine have no chance to be part of NATO until peace is restored, and that is why Putin doesn’t push for, how you called it, Novorussia? What he needs is 2 or 3 “Russian” provinces with large autonomy (so my reference as Bosnianisation) that can block any attempt by the Ukrainian Government to join NATO. Is this so difficult to understand?

“Somehow, they have been doing fine without Russia so far” Really? Why Assad wasn’t bombed last year? Ah, yeah, Russia did oppose… As you said, US&EU manage very well the Iranian Nuclear Program with Russia… Oh no, they didn’t. They asked Russia for help…

“So this "badly need" is only your wishful thinking.” Unfortunately not, it is just a cold assessment of real politic, not distorted by nationalism and disillusion.

“Who knows, perhaps some elections later we will witness the greatest nightmare of Brenus come true.” You might be right, even if the splitting between the daughter and her father might have an impact on this.
I can see that the prospect to have more Nazi in power fills you of joy and pleasure. Why am I not surprise?

“as I have shown” As usual, you shown nothing. They had a Nazi lile ideology, they allied with the Nazi, and did all Nazi things. And today they proudly wear the insignia of the 2 SS Das Reich in their meeting and in the today Ukrainian Army unit as shown previously.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacr...astern_Galicia

**GenosseGeneral** · 06-08-2015, 08:21

Whom do you have in mind when talking about Nazis, Brenus? Could you be more specific? because there are indeed forces in Ukraine which have little in common with European values: http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1433457163
I tell you, I have as much sympathy for the Right Sector, Svoboda and the Radical party, forr Yarosh and Lyashko, as I have for their Russian counterparts such as the LDPR, "Cossacks", Russian monarchists etc. As the article above shows, they share indeed more ideology-wise than they would ever admit: Homophobia, ethnonationalism, anti-Western positions. Heck, a good deal of Russian Nazis even shares their hatred for the Soviet Union.Yes, you read right: the "pro-European" stance of the Ukrainian far right is more a tactical mask it put on during Euromajdan. Before that, Svoboda for instance, wanted a block-free Ukraine following some kind of a "third way" (preferably secured by its own nuclear weapons).
If you talk about those Nazis, then yes, I agree with you that they exist. I also agree with you, that during the past year, the moderate political parties failed to clearly distance themselves by a cordon sanitaire from those lunatic forces. especially Yatseniuk has also an unhealthy habit of imitating their rhethorics.
However, they received fairly little of the vote in last year's parliamentary elections. The only true right-wing party which made it beyond the threshold was Lyashko's radical party, with 8-9 per cent iirc and even less seats, due to Ukraine's mixed majority/proportional system. Svoboda won three direct mandates.
Now let's compare it: No one here calls France a fascist state, although the Front National has won more of the vote. And i am sure I could dig out some more white supremacists/neonazis like the old Le Pen somewhere in the internet. @Gilrandir: Don't be to apologetic for the UPA/OUN. Communism also had a noble cause, yet we denounce it last but not least because of its methods. Well, at least outside of Russia. Fun fact: in a 2010 survey, Bandera was less popular than Lenin or Brezhnev. In another survey, 52 per cent of all Ukrainians supported Yanukovich's revocation of the title "Heroe of Ukraine" for him, with 31 per cent opposing that move. The only macroregion which wanted him to keep that title was the West. Replacing Lenin with Bandera is definitely NOT the way to reunify Ukraine. Stick with Taras Shevchenko, Ivano Franko or Yaroslav the Wise if you want to build monuments. (Sources for the surveys: Ukraine-Analysen 75 and 81. Unfortunately in German :/ http://www.laender-analysen.de/ukraine/archiv.php )

**Sarmatian** · 06-08-2015, 09:06

Originally Posted by GenosseGeneral

Whom do you have in mind when talking about Nazis, Brenus? Could you be more specific? because there are indeed forces in Ukraine which have little in common with European values: http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1433457163
I tell you, I have as much sympathy for the Right Sector, Svoboda and the Radical party, forr Yarosh and Lyashko, as I have for their Russian counterparts such as the LDPR, "Cossacks", Russian monarchists etc. As the article above shows, they share indeed more ideology-wise than they would ever admit: Homophobia, ethnonationalism, anti-Western positions. Heck, a good deal of Russian Nazis even shares their hatred for the Soviet Union.Yes, you read right: the "pro-European" stance of the Ukrainian far right is more a tactical mask it put on during Euromajdan. Before that, Svoboda for instance, wanted a block-free Ukraine following some kind of a "third way" (preferably secured by its own nuclear weapons).
If you talk about those Nazis, then yes, I agree with you that they exist. I also agree with you, that during the past year, the moderate political parties failed to clearly distance themselves by a cordon sanitaire from those lunatic forces. especially Yatseniuk has also an unhealthy habit of imitating their rhethorics.
However, they received fairly little of the vote in last year's parliamentary elections. The only true right-wing party which made it beyond the threshold was Lyashko's radical party, with 8-9 per cent iirc and even less seats, due to Ukraine's mixed majority/proportional system. Svoboda won three direct mandates.
Now let's compare it: No one here calls France a fascist state, although the Front National has won more of the vote. And i am sure I could dig out some more white supremacists/neonazis like the old Le Pen somewhere in the internet. @Gilrandir: Don't be to apologetic for the UPA/OUN. Communism also had a noble cause, yet we denounce it last but not least because of its methods. Well, at least outside of Russia. Fun fact: in a 2010 survey, Bandera was less popular than Lenin or Brezhnev. In another survey, 52 per cent of all Ukrainians supported Yanukovich's revocation of the title "Heroe of Ukraine" for him, with 31 per cent opposing that move. The only macroregion which wanted him to keep that title was the West. Replacing Lenin with Bandera is definitely NOT the way to reunify Ukraine. Stick with Taras Shevchenko, Ivano Franko or Yaroslav the Wise if you want to build monuments. (Sources for the surveys: Ukraine-Analysen 75 and 81. Unfortunately in German :/ http://www.laender-analysen.de/ukraine/archiv.php )

Are you seriously going with the story of communism=nazism to justify that it is ok if some Ukrainians celebrate Bandera and UPA?

Anyway, far right forces played a disproportionally large role in Maidan revolution. They were brought en masse from Lvov to Kiev to be used as shock troops. They had the support of the Kiev government to conduct mini revolutions in the east afterwards. After that, far right politicians/activists were given important roles in the sphere of public safety (police, courts - precisely where they are most dangerous), and many of them are still there, and/or their influence is still felt.

This parliament continued the practice of glorifying Bandera/UPA, irrespective of the number of far right MPs in the parliament, which makes it even more dangerous as it means it is a main stream view.

Of course not all Ukrainians are like that. Like in any country, most of the population is moderate, but the country is currently heading to a cliff, and no one is changing course.

**Gilrandir** · 06-08-2015, 12:42

Originally Posted by GenosseGeneral

Don't be to apologetic for the UPA/OUN. Communism also had a noble cause, yet we denounce it last but not least because of its methods. Well, at least outside of Russia.

As I have said many times (and which Brenus refuses to see), I have no great sympathy for UPA and Bandera. I realize the limited and biased character of their worldview and dubious and/or criminal nature of some of their deeds. But they were products of their time. And if we speak of say, Volyn massacre, we can't say that ALL UPA MEMBERS participated in it. And Bandera spent most of his active political life in Poish prison and Sachsenhausen. Most of those who criticize UPA and Bandera don't know that. I would like people to know all bad and good sides of things they are so opinionated about before they can make sober conclusions. So I don't see the reason to hate the now old men who didn't take part in any atrocities, but fought all those who they considered invaders - both Germans and Soviets.

Originally Posted by GenosseGeneral

Stick with Taras Shevchenko, Ivano Franko or Yaroslav the Wise if you want to build monuments.

Do you know that Shevchenko wrote many poems (including Haidamakas)in which he glorifued those who massacred jews and the Polish?

http://www.ukrainianwinnipeg.ca/shev...ews-haidmakas/

Some modern historians believe that Yaroslav the Wise assasinated his brothers Boris and Gleb and later attributed their murder to another brother Svyatopolk (later nicknamed for it the Accursed).

http://ria.ru/history_tochki/20100801/260888588.html

Bottomline: ANY HISTORIC FIGURE has very shady sided to him. So what is to be done - no glorification of anyone?
My answer - we should know about both the glorious and the ignoble and then praise him for the former and condemn for the latter.

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Anyway, far right forces played a disproportionally large role in Maidan revolution.

Of course, you have numerical data on general participation of people in Maidan events and on the number of far rightists among them so that we could confirm that your judgement is sound.

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

They were brought en masse from Lvov to Kiev to be used as shock troops.

Again, if you have the data on the number of people brought from Lviv to Kyiv and on the percentage of the far rightists among them and on their quantitative representation within the shock troops, we would consider them. Until then these are arbitrary claims.

**Gilrandir** · 06-08-2015, 12:49

And Tagliavini resigned:
http://www.sott.net/article/297447-O...kraine-resigns
Does it spell the demise of negotiations?

**Sarmatian** · 06-08-2015, 15:10

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

Of course, you have numerical data on general participation of people in Maidan events and on the number of far rightists among them so that we could confirm that your judgement is sound.

My judgement is sound. I didn't say they were majority, I said "they played disproportionally large role". Try to read.

Again, if you have the data on the number of people brought from Lviv to Kyiv and on the percentage of the far rightists among them and on their quantitative representation within the shock troops, we would consider them. Until then these are arbitrary claims.

There's been links to articles in this and previous thread. You can look for yourself. There are ample sources on the net. It is a matter of pride in Lviv that the Lviv State University was empty during Maidan, because all students were in Kiev.

**Gilrandir** · 06-08-2015, 12:07