Ukraine Thread

[Gilrandir]

Do you really expect me to quantify something like that? Like say 36.47% overall influence? Seriously? You're not trolling, you're being serious here?

I learned your teachings well, oh Exalted Master. You said that this is a place for serious debates, and that I should corroborate my statements with proofs.

What if I now claim that among the separatists there is a disproportionally large number of Russian and European nazis? You would surely demand proofs and receiving an answer like you gave you would again stick on my forehead the label of a sensationalist liar.

I won't do this regarding your claims. But until I see proofs, I wouldn't buy them.
All you can claim without doubt is that there were far rightists among the Maidaners and that they became especially conspicuous after the conflict grew really violent (the second half of February). The other claim (about their disproportional numbers) is arbitrary and questionable.

It is a figure of speech. It is not meant to be taken literally. Surely some disagreed, some were injured or sick, some went home, some just abhorred violence, some supported it but were to cowardly... It doesn't mean EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. It means a majority, a very large number of them

You go by stereotypes (deliberately or accidentally echoing those of Russian mass media):
1. All people/students from Western Ukraine are nationalists.
2. All of these nationalists are nazis/far-rightists.
3. All of them went to Maidan.
4. Maidan consisted solely of people from Western Ukraine.
All stereotypes tend to generalize conlusions made on a limited data thus are not true. What if I claim that all Muslims are terrorists or all blacks in the USA are athletes, entertainers or gangsters? Would it be true?

It seems to me that you are the one here who is vehemently against such generalizations. Well, perhaps, I am wrong. Or things change and in discussions (measured, serious and sober, mind you) you resort to such methods.

Aaaaaaand thank you!!! We have a winner! Give the man a cigar!

Precisely my point. And you knew that from the beginning and you could have just agreed with me two posts ago and save us this trouble.

Perhaps your memory cheats you, but I never claimed the opposite. At the same time I paid your attention that Madian consisted of people from ALL OVER UKRAINE. If you find where I claimed the opposite, I will share your "joy and pleasure" (cited after Brenus 2015, post 784 in the current thread).

So what? Nothing in the part after the first comma makes him special.

So what's the use of quoting him? You might as well leave a blank space after "Putin said that".

"As I have said many times (and which Brenus refuses to see)" You are not very convincing. Each time you come back with good reasons to explain why it was not entirely the Nazis fault to slaughter, you know, "well, sure the killing of Polish population is due to historical factors due to the fact that they are Polish and Polish are from Poland, so surely it was a good reason enough to kill them based on the fact they were Polish" kind of explanation, which are very convincing.

First of all, UPA were not nazis. Your sources call them collaborationists.
Second of all, I denounced the Volyn massacre.
Third af all, if you think that the convincing power of these statements is abated by claims that atrocities were abundant at the time of the war, it is your problem.

"Or do you think Western allies or Soviet troops committed no atrocities in liberated lands or in Germany?" The Soviets did (Kathyn (Sp) as we know) and as well a massive rape campaign (but to be fair, the Yugoslav complain about it and they were allied with the Russians), but I failed to have German, Italian, Hungarian or other Germans Allies villages rounded-up and burned alive in their Churches, house, warehouses or lined-up to be executed with a bullet in the head, and organising a pictures competition (the winner in the Nazi side was the guy killing the mother with her baby in her arm with ONE bullet!).

As I have said, a distant relative of mine (he was the husband of my grandmother's sister, died a decade ago) told me stories of the behavior of Soviet liberators abroad, which are different from the canonized ones. And, on the other hand, my mother told me about German occupation (although being only 4-6 years old back then) and she can't remember any maltreatment or misconduct by soldiers billeted in their house. So speaking about the unpleasant subject of atrocities one can't be guided by official sources only since not all of such cases found their way there.
Of course, the Nazi's scale of atrocities was much greater, yet there is no denying the fact that all belligerents didn't fight in white gloves.

"Stigmatizing people without a valid reason and explanation" Not a stigmatisation, an explanation, ...dude. You admitted yourself, as a Ukrainian you are not impartial (don't remember the exact wording you used). And to be delusional is how I qualify your analyse on Putin and Ukrainian crisis. Nothing about your person... I explained each time why and when.

So, to your mind, being not impartial=nationalist?
Then I have the full right to use your logics: claiming that Russia is not involved in Donbas conflict=Putin's supporter.

And in all this debate, the ones not following blindly NATO/EU/US propaganda are labelled a Putin's friends.

You humiliate others by denying them critical thinking while believing your stance to be sober and balanced. Others do the same and think you are "blindly following" Russian propaganda. So the whole discussion has turned into implicit recriminations (whatever Sarmatian may say about the seriousness of the debate here).

In fact, as Ukraine is banning the Gay Parade in Kiev (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22648210), the actual Kiev Government is probably closer to Putin than I am.

Again a lie (as it was the case with the Communist ban). The march WAS HELD and PROTECTED BY THE KYIV POLICE from those who attacked it.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0YS07R20150606

"No one here calls France a fascist state, although the Front National has won more of the vote." There are no openly Fascist nor Nazi Party is France. It is banned by law

The same in Ukraine and, I believe, in all countries. So, logically, those who you consider Ukraininan nazis are not.

We had a demonstration of more than 4 millions in the street to defend freedom against religious fanatics murderers.

What a verve! You believe that freedom is defended by marching and chanting slogans? Then why does France spend more on security measures? It could just take people into the streets every time something like CH happens.

[Husar]

So what's the use of quoting him? You might as well leave a blank space after "Putin said that".

The same use as quoting Merkel, Obama or any journalist on the issue.
The greeks have plenty of evidence that Merkel is like Hitler by the way.

[Gilrandir]

This is pathetic:
http://en.glavnoe.ua/news/n229277

[Husar]

This is pathetic:
http://en.glavnoe.ua/news/n229277

The automatic translation is really pathetic, I am not sure what it is trying to tell me.
To link to a biased Ukrainian source is just as pathetic, it's a deeply divided partisan country where both sides use propaganda to the max.

[Gilrandir]

The automatic translation is really pathetic, I am not sure what it is trying to tell me.
To link to a biased Ukrainian source is just as pathetic, it's a deeply divided partisan country where both sides use propaganda to the max.

This source quotes LIFENEWS, which can be called a biased Russian source.
The gist of the information (by Lifenews): Gubarev as well as other 15 people were detained in one of the high-rise bulidings in Donetsk because they started to shoot with a sniper rifle at a DNR military base near by.
There is a footage:
http://lifenews.ru/news/155318