Ukraine Thread

[Husar]

Uh, not I meant we never stop talking about Iraq because we know they lied.

Both Bush and Blair have been made mud by it.

With no real consequence though, neither of them stepped down. Can you explain why Clinton was impeached over lying about Lewinsky and Bush wasn't over sending people into their deaths to kill loads of foreigners? What kind of high standard is it that we're talking about?

As to Western Leaders lying and resigning after being caught...

Watergate?

Also - every British politician who has resigned, ever?

Watergate was too long ago; and how many of them resigned after lying about issues on foreign politics?
A lot of it is about internal issues where hardly anyone actually got hurt (compared to a war) and that do not affect other countries.
It's not comparable to Putin lying to/about the enemy.

B. Clinton almost did it. Almost. Well, many wanted him to.

Yes, as I said above, over an affair. The lie was less of a problem than the republican agenda to get rid of him for political reasons.
And it was still an internal problem. It is generally easier to accept a politician who lies to screw other nations than one who lies to you as a voter.

[Gilrandir]

It is June 12th and Putin is the Angel of Peace:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/w...ican/71007412/

[Husar]

It is June 12th and Putin is the Angel of Peace:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/w...ican/71007412/

"The Pope! How many divisions has he got?" - Josef Stalin
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin

[Gilrandir]

A poll on the attitude of Ukrainians to the war in Donbas:
http://news.rin.ru/eng/news///114736/

[GenosseGeneral]

Well, that makes actually sense. There was an episode a couple of months ago, when someone leaked that Putin allegedly in a closed meeting with business leaders told an anecdote in which Poroshenko had offered him the Donbass during the Minsk talks. Whether this contained any truth or not, it underlined the fact that no one really wants the Donbass anymore. That area's infrastructure is heavily damaged: bridges have been blown up, water and gas pipelines have been hit by artillery shells, tracked vehicles have ravaged roads. The most devastating example is probably Donetsk airport: rebuilt for Euro 2012, it not more than a heap of rubble after the fighting. Law enforcement is more or less defunct, as thugs on both sides do not really care about stuff like "property rights" and I highly doubt that Donetsk's militsiya has received any pay during the last year. On top of that, living space has been either destroyed or damaged (windows destroyed by shells' shockwaves) and businesses have effectively shut down. So whoever gets the Donbass ends up with a region which needs billions of USD to get infrastructure running, a population of 2-3 million completely dependent on social aid (currently more or less supplied by Russia), and, if Kiev regains control, is openly hostile to the central government.
That is a burden Ukraine alone cannot shoulder, especially not in light of the economic meltdown and the high likelyhood of a government default. Nevertheless, Western funding for reconstruction of the Donbass as part of a peace agreement would stabilize the region more than arms deliveries, military excercises and training for Kiev's forces.

[Husar]

Or China could take the Donbass. Might make them geographically eligible to join the EU.

A quote that sounds clever until you stop to think about geopolitical realities and how religion is a factor.

And here I thought this Stalin guy sounds as reasonable as Hitler, but thank you for opening my eyes.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It's quoted because it's seen as a clever comment.

But you knew that.

[Gilrandir]

I highly doubt that Donetsk's militsiya has received any pay during the last year.

Which militsiya do you mean? If the separatists' - it is true. But I doubt that the Ukrainian police (which is still called "militsiya") in parts of Donbas controlled by Kyiv is not paid any salaries.

Nevertheless, Western funding for reconstruction of the Donbass as part of a peace agreement would stabilize the region more than arms deliveries, military excercises and training for Kiev's forces.

If any financial infusions into the region's infrastructure and economy are made on behalf of the West, they are likely to be accepted (if they are) with hostility and curses. But since Minsk agreement is not observed, no infusions loom for Donbas (unless those from Russia which are just enough to keep the people afloat).


But you speak of economic and finacial considerations which are a care of the government. The poll rather reflects the popular attitude to the severed parts of Donbas. This attitude is more or less epitomized by the statement: "If they want so much to live apart, well, let them do it, and we'll see what will happen to them".

[GenosseGeneral]

Which militsiya do you mean? If the separatists' - it is true. But I doubt that the Ukrainian police (which is still called "militsiya") in parts of Donbas controlled by Kyiv is not paid any salaries.



If any financial infusions into the region's infrastructure and economy are made on behalf of the West, they are likely to be accepted (if they are) with hostility and curses. But since Minsk agreement is not observed, no infusions loom for Donbas (unless those from Russia which are just enough to keep the people afloat).


But you speak of economic and finacial considerations which are a care of the government. The poll rather reflects the popular attitude to the severed parts of Donbas. This attitude is more or less epitomized by the statement: "If they want so much to live apart, well, let them do it, and we'll see what will happen to them".

Yeah, I had in mind the police force. Have they now officially renamed it? I read about plans for a new national police, but I was not sure how far those plans are advanced. I guess I am gonna see those guys then next week then, as I will go back to Germany via Kharkov and Kiev.

Well, the average Ukrainian might not calculate how many billions rebuilding the Donbass' infrastructure costs, but he can easily calculate how much the war costs, for him/her personally. As you pointed already out, not every young man from Kiev, Odessa or Lvov is keen to die for Donetsk. And at least some of Donetsk's inhabitants showed, that they are also fed up with the fighting: http://tvrain.ru/teleshow/here_and_n..._trebu-389196/
(Remarkable sentence: we want peace, we want a place at the negotiation table)

But of course any government making a decision to abandon the Donbass would face a Ukrainian version of the "stab-in-the-back myth" from the side of nationalist forces. And some of those nationalist forces are quite well-equipped and were quite hesitant to subordinate under formal command from Kiev.
Also, it is notable that the its industry played a key role for Ukraine's export - quite valuable for a country with a foreign trade deficit.

This sounds like an interesting reportage into the economic consequences the conflict has for the Donbass. Unfortunately, the full version is subscriber-only :/
https://slon.ru/special/donbass-economics

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

"The Pope! How many divisions has he got?" - Josef Stalin
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin

A quote that sounds clever until you stop to think about geopolitical realities and how religion is a factor.