Ukraine Thread

[Fragony]

How will you vote?

Against, there is a civil war going on, it isn't just a trade treaty but also a military one. The EU shouldn't get too close to Russia. Ukraine is also very poor and pretty corrupt.

[Gilrandir]

Against, there is a civil war going on, it isn't just a trade treaty but also a military one.

This is the first time I hear of a military aspect of the treaty. Or is the EU a military organization?

The EU shouldn't get too close to Russia.

It may surprise you, but Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Finland are the EU members and are as close to Russia as you may want - they have a common border with Russia. And Georgia with which the EU signed AA is in the same situation.

Ukraine is also very poor and pretty corrupt.

That is true, but in some EU countries at the moment of their joining the EU corruption was similarly severe. Some say that in Bulgaria, for example, it is still not eradicated.

[wooly_mammoth]

^Romania and Bulgaria are still very bad in this department, but I don't think they compare with countries like Ukraine or the Republic of Moldova. At least we are making some headway, but those guys are taffed until the next ice age, in the optimistic estimation.

[Fragony]

EU is no military organisation, I don't know the specifics but there certainly is a military aspect. Fair enough about other countries being just as close, but they aren't as devided, I think it's asking for trouble. But the treaty is going to come anyway, the EU has already said we can shove the outcome up our asses, good news for Ukraine but not for us, nor for our current government (that IS good for us), not the first time a referendum was just ignored.

[Gilrandir]

EU is no military organisation, I don't know the specifics but there certainly is a military aspect.

I doubt it, there is NATO for this purpose.

[Fragony]

I doubt it, there is NATO for this purpose.

It's not what I say but what others say, but that is not the only reason to vote against this treaty, in the most egoistical form, it's going to cost a lot and there aren't any benefits, the billions that go to Greece are nothing compared to what will go to Ukraine, economic experts expect a 36% increase of inflation (yeah I know 'experts'). It's just not worth the trouble, nothing personal

[Husar]

I doubt it, there is NATO for this purpose.

IIRC, similar to NATO, an attack on an EU member state is seen as an attack on the EU or so...

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/summary/glo...l_defence.html

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...t-does-it-mean

Of course if you ask me, I find it strange that France invoked the clause for armed aggression when there is a clause for terrorist attacks (see first link), but I assume in 10 years we are far enough to invoke a nuclear attack clause if a muslim so much as scratches someone.

I also like how you guys discussed this for several posts and noone spent the 2 minutes it took me to search and read up on it.

[Fragony]

If it only took you two minutes to look it up then why didn't you already know it?

[Husar]

If it only took you two minutes to look it up then why didn't you already know it?

Because if I always look up everything that takes me only two minutes to look up, I will spend a lot of minutes in total, no?
And why would I do that if I'm not even part of the discussion other than to make the two of you stop talking about how you do not know anything about it for several pages?
And yes, I knew about it in general, I looked up the details so that I wouldn't have to join with yet another "I do not really know, but...."

So why would you ask these silly questions after I just helped you not to waste much more time discussing things you do not really know anything about but heard from others but do not really check yet talk about but maybe and perhaps?

[Husar]

Funny enough, however hard you might have spent the two minutes you didn't help a tiny bit. We were speaking of ASSOCIATION AGREEMENT, not of MEMBERSHIP.

EU is no military organisation, I don't know the specifics but there certainly is a military aspect.

I'm sorry that I overlooked the part where he said ASSOCIATION AGREEMENT, but it's okay, I forgive everyone.

[Gilrandir]

I'm sorry that I overlooked the part where he said ASSOCIATION AGREEMENT, but it's okay, I forgive everyone.

The starting point of the discussion of us two lazybones was the Dutch referendum on Ukraine-EU ASSOCIATION AGREEMENT. So everything said further bore on this issue. Perhaps you were too lazy to get to post # 930 from post # 937 (where you joined the discussion), but I forgive you.

[Fragony]

nvm

[Gilrandir]

On the Dutch referendum:
http://euromaidanpress.com/2016/01/2...ch-referendum/

[Fragony]

On the Dutch referendum:
http://euromaidanpress.com/2016/01/2...ch-referendum/

A very big boooohooohooo they don't want to play with us there. There are very good reasons to be against this treaty when it comes to geopolitics alone, but there are much more things that are simply unacceptable. Urkarians don't have to worry it has already been decided, as Juncker said 'we decide something, if there is no revolt we push it through, nobody knows what what we do anyway'. Drunks and children speak the truth. I would consider the chance of the UK and the Netherlands blowing up the EU pretty considerable, or at least looming, we have kinda had it with the EU all we do is paying.