Ukraine Thread

[Fragony]

On the Dutch referendum:
http://euromaidanpress.com/2016/01/2...ch-referendum/

A very big boooohooohooo they don't want to play with us there. There are very good reasons to be against this treaty when it comes to geopolitics alone, but there are much more things that are simply unacceptable. Urkarians don't have to worry it has already been decided, as Juncker said 'we decide something, if there is no revolt we push it through, nobody knows what what we do anyway'. Drunks and children speak the truth. I would consider the chance of the UK and the Netherlands blowing up the EU pretty considerable, or at least looming, we have kinda had it with the EU all we do is paying.

[Greyblades]

People are asked to vote against or in favor of the Association Agreement between the EU and Ukraine. Yet in fact it is like asking people to give their opinion on the Collected Works of Vladimir Ilyich Lenin. It is not even important whether you read it – it is such a complex document that can be interpreted by laypersons in so many ways that it does not make sense.

Strange that gilrandir's article is presenting this as a reason not to do away with an agreement when it sounds like a great reason to get rid of it, or at least replace it..

People want to see strawberries on their Dutch table in December, but they do not want globalization. People want to be sure their yogurts are fresh and safe and with an appropriate expiration date, but they don’t want EU rules and regulations. People want to surf their smartphones 24 hours a day, but they don’t want modern technology to make jobs redundant. People want all the pleasures but not the other side of the coin. Quite normal, of course, but any intelligent person knows you can’t have one without the other. Yet the majority of those who will vote “no” on April 6 in Holland want only one, and not the other.

Yeesh what an elitist asshole, he'd fit right in here.

He also seems completely ignorant of the concepts of greenhouses, dutch rules and regulations, and protectionism

You can call Parliament a “fake Parliament”, male refugees “testosterone bombs” that need to be locked up in camps and shout “No more Maroccans” and somehow every time well-educated Dutchmen adjust their levels of acceptance and let him continue.

I take it back, he wouldnt fit in here, even the worst of us arent complaining about free speech in action.

However, by now he has reached a level that reminds me painfully of the gentlemen Joseph Goebbels and Julius Streicher, who had the same type of stereotype slogans regarding Jews in the 1930s. A person who would have hibernated for twenty years and wake up now would not believe his eyes and ears, yet we have basically accepted his sick behavior because it is a step by step process, every time a little bit further. Just like Hitler in the 1920s and early 1930s; don’t forget, Germany was a democracy then, and Hitler came to power in a democratic fashion, not through a coup d’état like the Soviets!

Wow nazi comparison combined with historical ignorance of the night of long knives, this guy is a gift that keeps on giving.

The truth is that Europe is a war zone. Putin and his criminal buddies have brought the war to Europe. They stimulate discontent through their social media trolls, they support the earlier mentioned right-wing politicians because they are a destabilizing factor, they do anything to bring Merkel down (even if only because she is a “people’s traitor” from East Germany); they create havoc in Syria to keep the refugees coming.

This makes it very hard for the “yes-campaign”. How to make a population understand that this is not about Ukraine, but about something else? How to explain that by voting “no” they play right into the hands of a criminal state that is collapsing and as a result all the more dangerous? And I wonder, what would have happened if in the late 1930s Germans had a referendum vote on the Jews: how many would have voted against their expulsion?

Wait...Wouldnt the jewish community be better off right now if germany had expelled them before the nazis got into power?

Unfortunately, my political party D’66 created an instrument that is now fundamentally abused. My only hope is that it will open people’s eyes before it is too late. Democracy is in mortal danger, but it is not too late. We can still stop the process.

This would carry more weight (which is to say any) if he had actually tried to explain to the supposedly ignorant masses what the agreement is.

[Fragony]

I cant stresx enough that those behind the referendum insist that those in favour of this treaty vote in favour of it. But is as usual with the eurocrats, they mistake Europe with the EU, nothing but godwins and doom is what they can come up with. In the end the EU is nothing but a very expensive and intrusive overhead. It isn't even about the EU but about seeking trouble where it isn't needed.

[Gilrandir]

Strange that gilrandir's article is presenting this as a reason not to do away with an agreement when it sounds like a great reason to get rid of it, or at least replace it..

First of all, it is not MY article.

Second of all, whatever people here may think, I was not going to sway anyone here (or elsewhere) this or that way concerning the voting. I just came across an article by a Hollander who might be in the know of emotions and motifs within the Netherlands and dared to share it.

Third of all, he has a right to offer his reasons why he seconds Holland accepting the Ukraine-EU AA, now doesn't he?

Wow nazi comparison combined with historical ignorance of the night of long knives

The Night in question was a matter of internal strife within NSDAP, it had nothing to do with Hitler's party legally and legitimately winning in the election and Hitler becoming chancellor.

[Greyblades]

First of all, it is not MY article.

You presented it; in this context it's yours.

Second of all, whatever people here may think, I was not going to sway anyone here (or elsewhere) this or that way concerning the voting.

I gathered that and I didnt say you were trying to.

I just came across an article by a Hollander who might be in the know of emotions and motifs within the Netherlands and dared to share it.

"In the know" is pushing it, he's a left wing pundit whinging how terrible the filthy plebs are for not toeing the line.

Third of all, he has a right to offer his reasons why he seconds Holland accepting the Ukraine-EU AA, now doesn't he?

Did I say he didnt?

The Night in question was a matter of internal strife within NSDAP, it had nothing to do with Hitler's party legally and legitimately winning in the election and Hitler becoming chancellor.

I was tired and meant to say reichstag fire. Sue me.

[Gilrandir]

"In the know" is pushing it, he's a left wing pundit whinging how terrible the filthy plebs are for not toeing the line.

This is your own subjective opinion which doesn't cancel the fact of the author's being more aware of Hollanders' sentiment than you.

I was tired and meant to say reichstag fire. Sue me.

Again a miss. Still tired?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire

Adolf Hitler, who was sworn in as Chancellor of Germany four weeks before, on 30 January, urged President Paul von Hindenburg to pass an emergency decree to suspend civil liberties in order to counter the ruthless confrontation of the Communist Party of Germany. After passing the decree, the government instituted mass arrests of communists, including all of the Communist Party parliamentary delegates. With their bitter rival communists gone and their seats empty, the Nazi Party went from being a plurality party to the majority; this enabled Hitler to consolidate his power.

We spoke of Hitler legally COMING TO POWER, not of the things he did AFTERWARDS. Now what's your lawyer's email?

[Greyblades]

This is your own subjective opinion which doesn't cancel the fact of the author's being more aware of Hollanders' sentiment than you.

Actually I think that is the subjective opinion, one that is somewhat diminished by his naked disdane for his fellow dutchmen is; destroying any pretensions to objectivity his article may posess.

Again a miss. Still tired?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire
We spoke of Hitler legally COMING TO POWER, not of the things he did AFTERWARDS. Now what's your lawyer's email?

The nazis didnt come to power until they gained an overpowering majority, and your quote proved my point: He got his position in a plurality, meaning he was still restricted. Through the reichstag fire the nazis were able to replace the communist party members with their own, gain a true majority and thus COME TO POWER.

[Gilrandir]

The nazis didnt come to power until they gained an overpowering majority, and your quote proved my point: He got his position in a plurality, meaning he was still restricted. Through the reichstag fire the nazis were able to replace the communist party members with their own, gain a true majority and thus COME TO POWER.

Evidently, we have a different understanding of "power". I thought that any party having at least 1 seat majority in the parliament is at power. You seem to believe in the overwhelming majority needed to qualify a ruling party as a party at power.