Ukraine Thread

[Gilrandir]

Overall, the blame is on Ukraine because it didn't close that area off for civilian air traffic, regardless of who fired the actual missile.

Who could have doubted that Ukraine is to blame.

First of all, IIRC other companies redirected their flight routes without waiting for anyone to tell them to do that. Only Malaysian airways didn't.
Second of all Ukraine didn't know the separatists had received from Russia weapons able to reach the altitude passenger planes fly at.

[Sarmatian]

Who could have doubted that Ukraine is to blame.

That's the conclusion of the Dutch investigation, why are you angry at me for?

[Fragony]

That's the conclusion of the Dutch investigation, why are you angry at me for?

No it isn't Sarmss, nobody is pointing any fingers at anyone. It's a big mystery why that plane was shot down and by who. Both the Dutch and Ukrainian governments are very unwilling to cooperate. I can't know of course but I think it's muffled down becacause of the association treaty and the Dutch being the concert on the Titanic (read EU) for a while

[Sarmatian]

No it isn't Sarmss, nobody is pointing any fingers at anyone. It's a big mystery why that plane was shot down and by who. Both the Dutch and Ukrainian governments are very unwilling to cooperate. I can't know of course but I think it's muffled down becacause of the association treaty and the Dutch being the concert on the Titanic (read EU) for a while

Well, it wasn't the criminal investigation, but Dutch Safety Board chairman explicitly stated that Ukraine had enough evidence to close the air space for civilian travel and should have done so.

[Fragony]

Well, it wasn't the criminal investigation, but Dutch Safety Board chairman explicitly stated that Ukraine had enough evidence to close the air space for civilian travel and should have done so.

That's true of course, but the Dutch government was also warned and they seem to have done nothing with that warning. Minister of foreign afairs very quikly fled to Brussel for a freshly created function of being Junckers secretary

[Sarmatian]

That's true of course, but the Dutch government was also warned and they seem to have done nothing with that warning. Minister of foreign afairs very quikly fled to Brussel for a freshly created function of being Junckers secretary

No one needs to warn the government, there are international civilian aviation institutions that deal with that and they needed to be warned.

If someone warned the Dutch government, why only Dutch government? There were dozens of airplanes from many countries in that area on that day, three were in close proximity to MH117 at the time of detonation.

[Fragony]

No one needs to warn the government, there are international civilian aviation institutions that deal with that and they needed to be warned.

If someone warned the Dutch government, why only Dutch government? There were dozens of airplanes from many countries in that area on that day, three were in close proximity to MH117 at the time of detonation.

The warnings were kinda specific, something should have been done with it. But I don't think we will get to know, without saying the investigation is unwanted I strongly suspect it is. I am not alone in that, America is kinda amazed that Dutch government never asked for their satelite-intell, acurate to a square km, not the 400 square km we have, so is Malesia. French airliners did change course by the way

[Gilrandir]

http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven....html#comments should work, has nothing to do with that plane though

upper video, it's French but not hard to understand

And what does it prove? The fact that there were nazis on Maidan? Never denied that one. I denied the premise that they formed the bulk of protesters, were the moving force behind all the actions and have ruled (are still ruling) the country ever since. Anyway, no one seemed very excited when nazis took important positions in the Russian government:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aI0eEH_ZuHE
The guy who is saluting at the end of the 2007 video (and the crowd around is following him) is Dmitry Rogozin - DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER of Russia.

As for the French movie - started to watch it but when I saw videos with Azov marching on Maidan (it was formed THREE MONTHS AFTER those events) and heard that in Odesa 46 people "of Russian origin" died (the total number of victims was 48 (6 of whom were pro-Ukrainian fotball fans killed at the march before the fire started), but the author CAN'T KNOW THEIR ORIGIN - all he can speculate on is their political stance) - gave it up. More on the film is here (it is in French, sorry):
http://www.lemonde.fr/televisions-ra...2_1655027.html

Well, it wasn't the criminal investigation, but Dutch Safety Board chairman explicitly stated that Ukraine had enough evidence to close the air space for civilian travel and should have done so.

As I have mentioned, Ukraine DIDN'T HAVE enough evidence, the Stinger type missile launchers the separatists had couldn't reach the altitude used by passenger planes. The Buk could - but at that time Ukraine didn't know Russia provided it (with the crew) for them to use.

[Fragony]

Never said you did, it's just one of the many reasons why I am going to vote against the treaty 6 april, not that it matters whatever I vote in post-democratic Europe.

[Sarmatian]

As I have mentioned, Ukraine DIDN'T HAVE enough evidence, the Stinger type missile launchers the separatists had couldn't reach the altitude used by passenger planes. The Buk could - but at that time Ukraine didn't know Russia provided it (with the crew) for them to use.

Why are you arguing with me? That is not my conclusion.

This is where you should send your explanations

Tel (+31) 70 333 70 00
Postal adress
Dutch Safety Board
PO Box 95404 25 09 CK The Hague

Visiting adress
Anna van Saksenlaan 50
2593 HT The Hague

or send them an email at info@onderzoeksraad.nl

[Gilrandir]

Why are you arguing with me? That is not my conclusion.

If you referred to them, you are lining up with them. Otherwise you would have mentioned that you don't agree.

[Fragony]

Why are you arguing with me? That is not my conclusion.

This is where you should send your explanations



or send them an email at info@onderzoeksraad.nl

By all means do, at least 40% of it survived the black marker