Ukraine Thread

[Gilrandir]

It seems that those who initiated the referendum in the Netherlands embezzled some grants:
http://www.erasmusjournalisten.nl/in...ng-referendum/
It is in Dutch, I hope soon it will become available in English as well.

[Lizardo]

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/two...&NewsCatID=351

That's Ukraine's government are siding with the enemy of the world they should not be allowed into EU siding with ISIS supporters to spite Russia who.knows what's In Those ships

[Fragony]

It seems that those who initiated the referendum in the Netherlands embezzled some grants:
http://www.erasmusjournalisten.nl/in...ng-referendum/
It is in Dutch, I hope soon it will become available in English as well.

It's not true what is said there, Geenpijl declined the money themselves, but they did help others get it, no matter if they are pro, against, or neutral

[Gilrandir]

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/two...&NewsCatID=351

That's Ukraine's government are siding with the enemy of the world they should not be allowed into EU siding with ISIS supporters to spite Russia who.knows what's In Those ships

So Turkey is the enemy of the world? Breaking news: a NATO member is the enemy of the world which supports ISIS!!! Two Turkish battleships are to take Ukrainian arms and nazis to transport them to ISIS!!!

And someone snapped his fingers at the power Russian propaganda wields.

It's not true what is said there, Geenpijl declined the money themselves, but they did help others get it, no matter if they are pro, against, or neutral

I expect you can provide facts which prove what you said.

[Fragony]

Yes but it's in Dutch, it's all 100% clean, minister of national-affairs (who isn't exactly Geenpeil's greatest fan) publically stated that all accusations are baseless. All camps got the same amount, 50.000, totalling 150.000. Geenpeil itself refused to take any money whatsoever(they had the right on it but kindly didn't oblige) , they work strictly with volunteers and crowdfunds.

[Snowhobbit]

So Turkey is the enemy of the world? Breaking news: a NATO member is the enemy of the world which supports ISIS!!! Two Turkish battleships are to take Ukrainian arms and nazis to transport them to ISIS!!!

And someone snapped his fingers at the power Russian propaganda wields.



I expect you can provide facts which prove what you said.

Lizardo wants to bring the lizardpeople into power by killing all humans using chemical weapons. That is why he is so upset about the boats that took part in the destruction of Syrian chemical weapons.

[Lizardo]

Snowhobbit cant accept facts that don't allign with his world view you're in denial the amount of Military aged muslim males has drastically changed the countries demographics plus they say they are under 18 to get more benifits you're country doesnt even age test them. And the other foolish fool Gilrandir have you made a desperate appeal yet to the dutch like in these videos. How much compensation did you get from George Soros for this.

[Lizardo]

No No Pain No Ukraine hey Ukraine has gone to shit!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g_iylTykr6E

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7o08mz0WfAE

https://www.rt.com/news/337010-ukrai...-jets-croatia/

[Fragony]

Just voted, was rather busy which is good

[rory_20_uk]

It is a shame the Democratic deficit in Europe is so great that we are all forced to use whatever vote we are given to make a "statement" on something else that no vote was allowed - since people would likely vote the "wrong" way.

[Gilrandir]

And the other foolish fool Gilrandir have you made a desperate appeal yet to the dutch like in these videos. How much compensation did you get from George Soros for this.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g_iylTykr6E

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7o08mz0WfAE

https://www.rt.com/news/337010-ukrai...-jets-croatia/
[/QUOTE]
You should really get your wits together. They seem to be blown away with each new video you encounter in the Internet.

The first video you linked is by Russian television. Do I have to tell you what is Russia's take on everything connected with Ukraine? So referring to a Russian media for a reliable information and sober opinion about Ukraine (and not only) is ridiculous.

The second video: I don't support violence in the case when a group of aged people is gathered to say something. But there are some considerations which you may fail to know.

First of all, how do you know those youths are nazis (and they speak Russian by the way)?

Second of all, do you think they are attacking random senior protesters? The protesters display the flags of the communist party banned in Ukraine. So their meeting is a violation of law.

Third of all, if it were a serious attack, the pensioners would end up in hospital. What I saw in the video is pushing (on both sides, btw), some gas spraying and flag taking. If those youths meant business, believe me, the outcome would have been quite different.

Fourth of all, there is some ground for the youths (and others) to react like that (in this case it is overreaction), and it also concerns the third video: it is with such meetings (and zero reaction to them) that the occupation of Crimea and Donbas started. So people have become keenly (even painfully) conscious of anything that may further lead to the Donbas scenario. The same with the soda label: Coca-cola no more recognized Crimea as a part of Ukraine. Such flagrant statement in a war-ridden country is a sure way to provoke the reaction we saw in the video.

Generally, this is the last time I bother to comment on any videos about Ukraine you may find in the Net. I'm sure there are heaps of them, and many are rather unpleasant or shocking. But I believe if one sets his mind on digging out some dirt about any country he will succeed in it. But what he will prove? That shit happens everywhere? This is a conclusion that could be reached without bothering to find a proof.

Somehow you need a master Jedi to teach you how to use the force. Sarmatian, there is a new padawan who needs apprenticeship.

[Fragony]

Results (association treaty) are in, more than 30% voted (is the minimum), 64% voted against. About the same as with the EU constitution. Same thing will also happen of course, they call the almost exact same thing something else and do it anyway.

It's a good day though. Going to be interesting.

handy map https://www.facebook.com/euroreferen...type=3&theater This can't be just gnored

[Brenus]

"The protesters display the flags of the communist party banned in Ukraine. So their meeting is a violation of law." Hold on... I swear you told me that it was not true that the Communist Party was ban by law in Ukraine? So, to clarify, is the Communist Party banned in Ukraine or not?

[Gilrandir]

"The protesters display the flags of the communist party banned in Ukraine. So their meeting is a violation of law." Hold on... I swear you told me that it was not true that the Communist Party was ban by law in Ukraine? So, to clarify, is the Communist Party banned in Ukraine or not?

When we discussed it the trial was still in progress. Now it is official.

[Gilrandir]

Results (association treaty) are in, more than 30% voted (is the minimum), 64% voted against. About the same as with the EU constitution. Same thing will also happen of course, they call the almost exact same thing something else and do it anyway.

It's a good day though. Going to be interesting.

handy map https://www.facebook.com/euroreferen...type=3&theater This can't be just gnored

The map says 61% against. Which is the correct number?

[Fragony]

The map says 61% against. Which is the correct number?

61.1 against
38.1 in favour
the rest blank
33.2 attendance

Those are the final numbers

edit, there is still a margin for error, my bad

[Gilrandir]

61.1 against
38.1 in favour
the rest blank
33.2 attendance

Those are the final numbers

edit, there is still a margin for error, my bad

So it's like 20% of all Dutch are against AA? Can we say that 20% decide what is right for all the country?

And if it is ≈60 vs 40, can we say that the Dutch are a deeply divided nation?

[Fragony]

So it's like 20% of all Dutch are against AA? Can we say that 20% decide what is right for all the country?

And if it is ≈60 vs 40, can we say that the Dutch are a deeply divided nation?

Matter of how people look at things, some think we give a mandate for 4 years, some think we should have a more direct say in things, and most in general dispise the EU. Critics of the referendum probably rightfully claim that it's more about the EU just doing as it pleases than it is about Ukraine, I would never dare saying that isn't a huge motivation for some, myself partially included, I kinda enjoy giving the EU and our government the finger I won't deny that. But there are very good reasons to be against this treaty regardless.

[Snowhobbit]

61.1 against
38.1 in favour
the rest blank
33.2 attendance

Those are the final numbers

edit, there is still a margin for error, my bad

Would the low attendance in some way give wiggleroom for the Dutch government to weasel out of what the referendum gave as a strong result? Given that as Gilrandir posted, in total only about 20% voted against it out of the eligible population.

[Fragony]

Would the low attendance in some way give wiggleroom for the Dutch government to weasel out of what the referendum gave as a strong result? Given that as Gilrandir posted, in total only about 20% voted against it out of the eligible population.

They can do that even if 100% showed up and voted no. We have seen that before with the EU-consitution referendum which we also said no to, took out the EU-athem and called it the Lissabon-treaty, and pushed it through despite the French and the Dutch rejecting it. Something similar is going to happen now, something that's irrelevant is taken out, treaty gets a new name, that's how the EU rolls. It's more of a problem for our national government who ars at an all-time low. We have put them in a very uncomfortable position with a no in a (enforced) referendum, the Dutch no will have no consequences for Ukraine whatsoever,everything has already been sneaked in a few months ago, few no-voter are as stupid as to think something substantial was ackomplished. See it as a bitchslap

Thing is, what was done now can be done again, with more resolve because we are going to be played again, and we will continue to it untill every old-boy's network here is insignificant.

[Snowhobbit]

They can do that even if 100% showed up and voted no. We have seen that before with the EU-consitution referendum which we also said no to, took out the EU-athem and called it the Lissabon-treaty, and pushed it through despite the French and the Dutch rejecting it. Something similar is going to happen now, something that's irrelevant is taken out, treaty gets a new name, that's how the EU rolls. It's more of a problem for our national government who ars at an all-time low. We have put them in a very uncomfortable position with a no in a (enforced) referendum, the Dutch no will have no consequences for Ukraine whatsoever,everything has already been sneaked in a few months ago.

So this whole thing was essentially meaningless then? I would say with only 20% of the population being so strongly against it that they go all the way to a voting booth, it won't be too much of a political issue for the government.

[Lizardo]

No, Snowhobbit the way polls usually work is that if you poll say 20 percent of the population and 80 percent vote no the results are upscaled as more or less representative of the general populous,
thats the method for TV ratings as they select a few households to have a device which notes what channel and program you are watching, most people dont vote in general elections anyway. So you can take what you want out of it.

[Fragony]

So this whole thing was essentially meaningless then? I would say with only 20% of the population being so strongly against it that they go all the way to a voting booth, it won't be too much of a political issue for the government.

Yep it was always meaningless, it's not binding. I am against that treaty and voted no but I already knew it has always been futile. But the government will have to thread a bit more kindly now that they know what a simple weblog can ackomplish; it takes 300.000 signatures to enforce a referendum, they had almost half million in a week. The reverendum itself needs 30% of the voting population before it has to be even considered, and that succeeded as well. Even then it can just be ignored. But we can do it again and again and again. Top-tier trolling really.

In the foreign media you keep seeing Wilders, but he had nothing to do with this masterclass, weblog geenstijl.nl is behind it.

[Gilrandir]

No, Snowhobbit the way polls usually work is that if you poll say 20 percent of the population and 80 percent vote no the results are upscaled as more or less representative of the general populous,
thats the method for TV ratings as they select a few households to have a device which notes what channel and program you are watching, most people dont vote in general elections anyway. So you can take what you want out of it.

This was no polling in the meaning that you have to ask a small number of people to get the general picture more or less correctly. This was voting which doesn't work this way.

it takes 300.000 signatures to enforce a referendum, they had almost half million in a week. The reverendum itself needs 30% of the voting population before it has to be even considered, and that succeeded as well. Even then it can just be ignored. But we can do it again and again and again.

Then get a referendum on the EU membership (as the British) and have done with it once and for all.

[Snowhobbit]

No, Snowhobbit the way polls usually work is that if you poll say 20 percent of the population and 80 percent vote no the results are upscaled as more or less representative of the general populous,
thats the method for TV ratings as they select a few households to have a device which notes what channel and program you are watching, most people dont vote in general elections anyway. So you can take what you want out of it.

[snip]
Polls are polls and elections are elections.
61.1=/=80

[Snowhobbit]

Yep it was always meaningless, it's not binding. I am against that treaty and voted no but I already knew it has always been futile. But the government will have to thread a bit more kindly now that they know what a simple weblog can ackomplish; it takes 300.000 signatures to enforce a referendum, they had almost half million in a week. The reverendum itself needs 30% of the voting population before it has to be even considered, and that succeeded as well. Even then it can just be ignored. But we can do it again and again and again. Top-tier trolling really.

In the foreign media you keep seeing Wilders, but he had nothing to do with this masterclass, weblog geenstijl.nl is behind it.

To be honest this isn't getting covered very much in our press, we have plenty of our own stupid stuff to deal with at the moment.

Here if a referendum gives a negative result it is binding for parliament, presuming that it is a referendum about changing the constitution. Otherwise they are simply advisory and as such serve little function.

[Fragony]

Then get a referendum on the EU membership (as the British) and have done with it once and for all.

We can't do that sadly, changing consitution ain't that easy. But it have been some good times to see eurocrats panicking 'THE ONLY ALTERNATIVE FOR THE EU IS WAR', 'IT WILL CAUSE AN CONTINENTAL CRISIS', quality media and state media abroad going nuts, EVERYBODY here knows that that referendum was never binding. You lot have fallen for the best organised prank ever. There are really serious objections our beloved parlement will have to answer for to be taken even remotily seriously. good luck fooing us again. But all in all you all have been reeled in like a big fat fish.

gg

edit, the EC does exactly what we hoped they would do, give us the finger and say they are going to do it anyway. Brits are you listening? You know what to do

[Gilrandir]

Putin created a new law enforcement body:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...book-with-new/

[Fragony]

Putin created a new law enforcement body:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...book-with-new/

I don't see anything particulary troublesome at first glance, only a lot of see? See? SEE?

[Brenus]

"Perhaps Mr. Putin sees oil staying in the $30-$40 range for the foreseeable future and understands what havoc this will bring for the economy and the government’s coffers. Perhaps Moscow is seeing the seeds of a new round of social unrest forming in the opposition. Perhaps Mr. Putin and his aides fear that punishing Western sanctions will remain in place for the foreseeable future and that the campaign to weaken European and American resolve has failed. Perhaps the czar is planning new international intrigues." Lots of perhaps.