Ukraine Thread

[Gilrandir]

The Cold-War is still very much reverberating through our lives though, witness Russian paranoia

Not only paranoia, but the absence of elementary logics as well: they didn't (and don't) recognize DPR and LPR, but they do recognize "official documents" issued by the people they don't recognize as the ones who may issue them.

[Sarmatian]

Russian paranoia predated the Cold War....predated the Tsars even. Predated Russia for that matter. It is a formative part of their psyche.

How can Russian paranoia predates Russia?

Not only paranoia, but the absence of elementary logics as well: they didn't (and don't) recognize DPR and LPR, but they do recognize "official documents" issued by the people they don't recognize as the ones who may issue them.

Not really that weird. Because the regions are in limbo, so to speak, the ordinary people living there are hurt the most, regardless of their political affiliations or lack thereof. Anything that makes it easier for them is good.

Serbia doesn't recognize Kosovo, but recognizes a quite a lot of document issues by Kosovo government and vice versa. It's basic decency. Even if political situation makes normal relations impossible, an effort should be made to make lives slightly "more normal" for people when possible.

[Montmorency]

How can Russian paranoia predates Russia

It comes with the territory. Literally.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

How can Russian paranoia predates Russia?

Because the Rus came before Russia, clearly.

I blame the Vodka - I hear it leads to maudlin paranoid drunkeness, unlike the Mead the original Norse Rus would have drunk - which leads to riotous and violent drunkeness.

Not really that weird. Because the regions are in limbo, so to speak, the ordinary people living there are hurt the most, regardless of their political affiliations or lack thereof. Anything that makes it easier for them is good.

Serbia doesn't recognize Kosovo, but recognizes a quite a lot of document issues by Kosovo government and vice versa. It's basic decency. Even if political situation makes normal relations impossible, an effort should be made to make lives slightly "more normal" for people when possible.

I'm sorry, but your example just shows how wrong-headed the policy is.

[Sarmatian]

I'm sorry, but your example just shows how wrong-headed the policy is.

Never said it wasn't, but that's the way it is, at the moment. Not doing little things to make life easier for people would make it even worse, not better.

[Gilrandir]

Not really that weird. Because the regions are in limbo, so to speak, the ordinary people living there are hurt the most, regardless of their political affiliations or lack thereof. Anything that makes it easier for them is good.

Attempts "to make it easier for ordinary people" (I greatly doubt that such was Putin's intention, though, - rather a statement of support for DPR's and LPR's leaders who are increasingly disillusioned in Russia) don't make the move logical. Recognizing documents written by those who aren't allowed to do that beats all legal considerations. It's like recognizing a note from a kid's mother that he was sick the day before so he didn't come to school as a medical certificate. It certainly makes it easier for the kid to skip classes (when he learns to ape his mother's hand).

Serbia doesn't recognize Kosovo, but recognizes a quite a lot of document issues by Kosovo government and vice versa. It's basic decency. Even if political situation makes normal relations impossible, an effort should be made to make lives slightly "more normal" for people when possible.

Invalid comparison. Serbia still considers Kosovo its territory. Does Russia consider DPR and LPR their part?

If one reads Putin's decree carefully one would notice that it never uses the names of DPR or LPR. It speaks of "certain areas of Donetsk and Luhansk regions of Ukraine" never specifying what are those. Do they include those areas of Ukraine which are beyond the сurrent front line or those that were mentioned in the Minsk agreement (the latter states that Debaltsevo taken by Russians AFTER the agreement was signed is ostensibly a part of Ukraine-held territory)?

Anyway, this recognition is de facto an end to the Minsk agreement.

[Gilrandir]

The Hague Court has started hearings on Ukraine vs Russia trial. Russia denies all charges claiming that the separatists found old Soviet weapons in mines.
http://24-my.info/russia-in-the-hagu...f-the-donbass/

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-0...arings/8338252

Russia's lawyer is a British QC (presumably adhering to the principle that even a murderer is entitled to a spirited defence).

Notably, he's not denying the Buk missile that shot down a Malaysian Airliner came from Russia, he's denying there's any evidence the Russian though the rebels would shoot down an airliner.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-0...arings/8338252

Russia's lawyer is a British QC (presumably adhering to the principle that even a murderer is entitled to a spirited defence).

Notably, he's not denying the Buk missile that shot down a Malaysian Airliner came from Russia, he's denying there's any evidence the Russian though the rebels would shoot down an airliner.

That barrister will do far better with that argument than with trying to defy facts outright.

[Gilrandir]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-0...arings/8338252

Russia's lawyer is a British QC (presumably adhering to the principle that even a murderer is entitled to a spirited defence).

Notably, he's not denying the Buk missile that shot down a Malaysian Airliner came from Russia, he's denying there's any evidence the Russian though the rebels would shoot down an airliner.

And he calls for more facts from JIT report which is officially denounced by Russia as biased and full of fabricated evidence.

[Sarmatian]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-0...arings/8338252

Russia's lawyer is a British QC (presumably adhering to the principle that even a murderer is entitled to a spirited defence).

Notably, he's not denying the Buk missile that shot down a Malaysian Airliner came from Russia, he's denying there's any evidence the Russian though the rebels would shoot down an airliner.

You defend against the accusations against you, no need to help the other side by broadening them. If the accusation is that Russian state willfully supplied the Ukrainian rebels a BUK missile system to shoot down a civilian plane, you defend against that. That's pretty much how it goes. But idiotic journalists are so keen on an agenda that soon we will have headlines about huge scandals that ambassadors to Russia were constantly in contact with Russian ministry of foreign affairs. In other huge twists, cops will be eating donuts and rich people will be playing golf.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

You defend against the accusations against you, no need to help the other side by broadening them. If the accusation is that Russian state willfully supplied the Ukrainian rebels a BUK missile system to shoot down a civilian plane, you defend against that. That's pretty much how it goes. But idiotic journalists are so keen on an agenda that soon we will have headlines about huge scandals that ambassadors to Russia were constantly in contact with Russian ministry of foreign affairs. In other huge twists, cops will be eating donuts and rich people will be playing golf.

Fair point that.

Far too often, when the case is a "cause celebre," prosecutors will bow to public opinion and attempt to prosecute at a level that is not supported by evidence. Zimmerman was tried for 2nd degree murder for the death of Trayvon Martin when the cops suggested Manslaughter as the provable charge. But the community was in arms and only "murder" would do. Casey Anthony was tried for murdering her child....when the evidence had been severely compromised -- but public opinion "knew" that she had murdered her toddler. The Boston mobbed screamed for the hanging of the British soldiers who killed rioters in the "Boston Massacre."

Public opinion and "calls for action" do NOT mesh well with the judicial process. It is about what can be proven through evidence, not what you think of them -- or the court process is meaningless.

In this instance, a prosecutor is going to find great difficulty in PROVING that the Russians were negligent/encouraging of the use of one of their missile systems by rebel forces to shoot down a civilian airliner. The provided the weapon, but how do you prove they were encouraging the rebels to use it indiscriminately? And without that level of negligence, they are no more "guilty" than any other provider of weapons.

[Gilrandir]

Russia's lawyer is a British QC (presumably adhering to the principle that even a murderer is entitled to a spirited defence).

No principle, just the money.