Ukraine Thread

[Crandar]

They are deprived of their right to vote for a specific party, which in no way violates the penal code of the country. This is called oppression and the justification of it is indeed reminiscent of fascism. You will need to show me how the Communist Party of Ukraine supports all that nasty stuff you mentioned. Not that this is the reason for which it is banned, as the parliament and municipal authorities openly celebrate and protect the memory of genocidal maniacs, a hypocritical stance which leads to the conclusion that Kiev is not really worried about the heritage of war criminals.

[Gilrandir]

They are deprived of their right to vote for a specific party, which in no way violates the penal code of the country. This is called oppression and the justification of it is indeed reminiscent of fascism.

I see you wish to enter the old debate again.

The specific party is responsible for the Femine of 1932-33 and many other evils committed under its guidance while it was at power. And fascists electing Jews as presidents and appointing them prime ministers are very unusual fascists.

You will need to show me how the Communist Party of Ukraine supports all that nasty stuff you mentioned.

Supported. It is now banned, you remember.

It is difficult for me to find texts in English which I can refer to. But I have found some:
https://www.kyivpost.com/article/con...?cn-reloaded=1

This is not the first such statement made by the CPU leader. Earlier Symonenko spoke about the Crimean Tatars in a fascist manner. He said that they were fairly deported from Crimea in 1944, because, say, they are betrayers.

https://books.google.com.ua/books?id...stalin&f=false

Other references I can provide are regretfully in Russian and Ukrainian. In them the leader of the Ukraninian communists more than once outlined the positive image of Stalin and spoke in likewise manner of Crimean Tatars.

Not that this is the reason for which it is banned, as the parliament and municipal authorities openly celebrate and protect the memory of genocidal maniacs, a hypocritical stance which leads to the conclusion that Kiev is not really worried about the heritage of war criminals.

It was the same parliament that appointed Groisman Prime Minister of Ukraine, right?

But let me quote the articles you linked.

The Ukrainian parliament last week declared January 1 a national day of commemoration for Stepan Bandera, who briefly joined forces with the Nazi occupation of Ukraine. A nationalist, Bandera hoped the Germans would allow his country independence from the Soviet Union, though the Nazis later arrested him.

Some of his supporters at the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, which he headed, committed countless war crimes against Jews.

If we call all who "briefly joined forces with the Nazis" collaborators, should we not start with Stalin, the leader of the Communist Party of the USSR? And if you paid attention, Bandera fell out with the Nazis (as Stalin did) and was not just "arrested" but spent all the rest of WWII in Sachsenhausen concentration camp. Isn't the place befitting collaborators?

And we start condemning a person for what "some" of his supporters did we might as well mention Marx whose numerous supporters and followers did many unsavory things in the USSR, China, North Korea, Cambodia and elsewhere.

And I can give you one more fact that ANY history is a dirty thing:
https://www.thejc.com/news/world/wha...ed-him-1.57961

The bottom line (unless you want to carry on):
history was full of iniquitous and noble deeds. Some of them were committed by the same people. These people deserve glorification for the latter and condemnation for the former.

[Crandar]

Fascism=/=Antisemitism.
I didn't know that Marx was the leader of the Khmer Rouge, the Bolsheviks and the CCCP. Naughty, naughty Karl!

Bandera and his merry band of sociopaths slaughtered tens of thousands of Poles, which is why I called them genocidal maniacs and not "German collaborators" (although they were), as you strawmanly tried to imply. Peltura may have verbally opposed the pogroms, but his henchmen continued to casually massacre the Jews. I think Peltura, as an adult and Supreme Commander/President of the Ukrainian Republic should be held responsible for the crimes of his subordinates.
I hope that the Ukrainian society will eventually find the necessary maturity to examine its history objectively, without feeling the need to glorify bloodthirsty monsters.

What do you personally think of Bandera and the Volhynian genocide? Do you believe that a couple of dead Ukrainians justify the ethnic cleansing of thousands of Poles?

[Gilrandir]

Fascism=/=Antisemitism.
I didn't know that Marx was the leader of the Khmer Rouge, the Bolsheviks and the CCCP. Naughty, naughty Karl!

All of them claimed to have been Marxists. So Marx had as much to do with actual slaughters as Bandera with the Volyn massacre.

Bandera and his merry band of sociopaths slaughtered tens of thousands of Poles, which is why I called them genocidal maniacs and not "German collaborators" (although they were), as you strawmanly tried to imply.

As I have remarked Bandera was in the concentration camp, so he slaughtered no one. And I would like to have proofs (preferebly by a psychologist) that "his merry band" were sociopaths.

Peltura may have verbally opposed the pogroms, but his henchmen continued to casually massacre the Jews. I think Peltura, as an adult and Supreme Commander/President of the Ukrainian Republic should be held responsible for the crimes of his subordinates.
I hope that the Ukrainian society will eventually find the necessary maturity to examine its history objectively, without feeling the need to glorify bloodthirsty monsters.

As I have said, almost each historical personality has good and bad deeds in his record. We should glorify the former and denounce the latter.

What do you personally think of Bandera and the Volhynian genocide? Do you believe that a couple of dead Ukrainians justify the ethnic cleansing of thousands of Poles?

I think we should treat the cases of Bandera and the massacre separately. I have no great admiration of the man taking into account his "dark side". But one can't forget his ultimate purpose - the creation of the Ukrainian independent state. So for me he remains a controversial figure. But so are many others including those of Israel, who committed war crimes against Arabs back in the 1960s or were involved in terrorism earlier, but are glorifeid there as founders and defenders of the country.

As for the massacre, I think it horrible. But it doesn't make the massacres of Ukrainians by Poles less horrible and you seem to gauge the iniquity of the crime depending on the number of victims. A couple of dead Ukrainians don't seem to upset you. Although it is not true, there were more than a couple, the victims number thousands.

A couple of years ago Poroshenko took part in commemorating the Polish victims and asked for forgiveness on behalf of Ukraine. I don't remember the reciprocate action on the Polish side.

[Montmorency]

Zelensky wins with 73%.

In a very Ukrainian twist, there are questions over whether Zelenskiy is really so removed from the traditional political players. Journalists have discovered flight records suggesting he made frequent trips to Tel-Aviv and Geneva, the twin bases of exiled oligarch Ihor Kolomoyskiy, and a number of Zelenskiy’s inner circle are also linked to the businessman, who owns the channel where Zelenskiy’s television programmes appear.

The election thus ends up looking quintessentially Ukrainian: a president who promised he would take on the oligarchs but is actually an oligarch himself, against an actor known for playing a fictional president who takes on the oligarchs, but who is in fact controlled by an oligarch.

Soviet humor?

[Strike For The South]

Hey guys remember when I was like "Putin is a fascist" and yall were all like "no this is just geo politics"

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Hey guys remember when I was like "Putin is a fascist" and yall were all like "no this is just geo politics"

Putin's been steadily working at rebuilding the Russian Empire.