Ukraine Thread

**Gilrandir** · 06-25-2019, 14:10

Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Sanctions seldom work, leaving Europe with a choice between treating all of Russia like a pariah state a la SA in the 1970s, launching a war to take back Ukraine, and going back to business as usual. You are enough of a realist to see what happens.

Not sanctions, but THE sanctions. The sanctions introduced against Russia.

Complaining that sanctions don't work is like complaining the treatment doesn't work. In spite of what the doctor prescribed, you take just one pill a week and expect the disease to abate. Probably, you should take two pills a day, than you can see whether the treatment works.

As for returning Russia to PACE, it was denied the right to speech (after which it left the premises and stopped payments into PACE's budget) as a response to aggression in Crimea and Donbas. Has anything changed? Has Crimea been returned to where it belongs? Have the Russians withdrawn from Donbas? No, moreover, Russia's guilt in shooting down MH17 has been proved, Russia ignores resloution of the same PACE to release Ukrainian sailors captured in November 2018. What is PACE's reaction? Let Russia appear in the assembly hall (and get the money back). I applaud the integrity and consistency of Europeans. Especially the Dutch, who lost 200 people in the plane crash.

**Philippus Flavius Homovallumus** · 06-26-2019, 00:38

Realistically, we would be at war were it not for the Nukes.

Let's not pretend it's diplomacy keeping the peace.

I feel for the Ukranian people, I do, but the fact NATO does not have the means to resolve the situation and the sanctions weren't doing much.

**Gilrandir** · 06-26-2019, 08:38

Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

Realistically, we would be at war were it not for the Nukes.

Let's not pretend it's diplomacy keeping the peace.

I feel for the Ukranian people, I do, but the fact NATO does not have the means to resolve the situation and the sanctions weren't doing much.

League of nations was not shy to expel a perpetrator back in the 1930s. I don't see why modern international bodies can't follow suit for similar transgression. At least this they can do without any war.

As for sanctions, why not cut off Russia from SWIFT and introduce oil embargo? For a start. Then we will see if sanctions work.

**Philippus Flavius Homovallumus** · 06-26-2019, 11:26

Originally Posted by Gilrandir

League of nations was not shy to expel a perpetrator back in the 1930s. I don't see why modern international bodies can't follow suit for similar transgression. At least this they can do without any war.

As for sanctions, why not cut off Russia from SWIFT and introduce oil embargo? For a start. Then we will see if sanctions work.

The League of Nations failed in part BECAUSE it expelled members.

**Gilrandir** · 06-26-2019, 13:37

Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

The League of Nations failed in part BECAUSE it expelled members.

First of all, it expelled only one member (AFAIK).

Now you will tell me PACE is a thriving organization? It bans a member from voting and sets conditions, the member ignores them, and then PACE says "Alrightie, just pay your sub, will you, and you are pardoned" (= pay and do whatever you want). What country will obey PACE's injunctions after that?

**Seamus Fermanagh** · 06-26-2019, 23:34

Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

Realistically, we would be at war were it not for the Nukes.

Let's not pretend it's diplomacy keeping the peace.

I feel for the Ukranian people, I do, but the fact NATO does not have the means to resolve the situation and the sanctions weren't doing much.

Sadly, I doubt that. Ukraine is not a NATO member, the Russians are quite close and Western logistics much more tenuous, and NATO in general shows a decided disinterest in bleeding to advance its agenda. Since that is the only currency that counts in this kind of thing...

**Philippus Flavius Homovallumus** · 06-27-2019, 19:46

Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Sadly, I doubt that. Ukraine is not a NATO member, the Russians are quite close and Western logistics much more tenuous, and NATO in general shows a decided disinterest in bleeding to advance its agenda. Since that is the only currency that counts in this kind of thing...

You Americans, so sentimental.

Shutting Russia out of the Crimea and Karlingrad leaves most of their fleet ice-locked for half the year.

NATO is an alliance of convenience, strategic convenience, and Russian aggression is inconvenient - makes trade difficult.

Plus - it's 27/06/19 and Putin is still basically a Fascist.

**Montmorency** · 06-27-2019, 20:29

most of their fleet ice-locked for half the year.

Well...

**Gilrandir** · 06-28-2019, 13:54

Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

You Americans, so sentimental.

Shutting Russia out of the Crimea and Karlingrad leaves most of their fleet ice-locked for half the year.

NATO is an alliance of convenience, strategic convenience, and Russian aggression is inconvenient - makes trade difficult.

Plus - it's 27/06/19 and Putin is still basically a Fascist.

Are the British any better? May supported returning Russia to PACE. After Salisbury poisoning too!
Conclusion: when it is about the money values are forgotten.

**Gilrandir** · 08-21-2019, 15:21

Proofs of Russian involvement in Ukraine summarized:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...t-human-rights

**Montmorency** · 10-02-2019, 04:53

Just want to post some good news: Russian alcohol consumption has decreased by 43% from its 2003 peak, and life expectancy has reached an all-time high.