Ukraine Thread

[Kagemusha]

As the original thread has been closed, because of complete sidetracking. I thought of returning to the subject, because of the recent developments.

Linky: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28969784

Apparently modern Russian equipment are crawling all over the separatist controlled area in Eastern Ukraine, accompanied by familiar masked "little green men" carrying modern Russian military gear.

While the "ceasefire" at least at Donetsk airport has never really even materialized, now some experts claim that large scale warfare will start in matter of days.

I dont like this development one bit.

[Sarmatian]

I was wondering when someone will reopen the discussion.

A big opportunity for peace has been missed. After the Ukrainian parliamentary elections, Russia recognized the results as legitimate will of the Ukrainian people. A few days later, elections in the rebel controlled areas were held, and representatives elected. It was a perfect occasion for two sides to recognize each other's representatives so that proper dialogue can start. Kiev refused to do so.

Instead, Kiev proceeded to physically cut the rebel controlled areas from the rest of the country - passport control, cutting them off the budget (pensions, salaries...) and refusing to supply them with basic necessities, most importantly gas for heating.

Now, all potential avenues for dialogue are closed, and there simply is no other options for people in Donetsk and Lugansk but to fight and try to secede. I'm hoping it won't come to that. but they have been cornered, there's no other way to go for them now.

I'm still trying to understand why Kiev did what they did.

[a completely inoffensive name]

It's November 13th, and Putin is still a fascist.

[Strike For The South]

Don't worry I'm sure once he gets sudentanland Eastern Ukarine I'm sure he will stop. I'm not even sure those brutish drunks know how much up shit creek they really are

[HoreTore]

I hear Darth Sidious is on his way.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30039004

The Russians are transporting their dead soldiers home.

Not like we didn't know of course.

Kiev, of course, expected Russia and the Separatists to follow the proposed timetable. Likewise, Russia and the Separatists never intended to.

If the Separatists were going to hold election two days after the Ukrainian one that would have been what was reported ALL OVER THE WORLD after the Minsk talks.

I think the best we can hope for now is that Ukraine is able to push the rebels back when they launch their spring offensive (the rebels have admitted it's coming).

[Gilrandir]

Linky: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28969784

The linked article claims that

Russian President Vladimir Putin said that all they agreed to in Minsk was to hold elections "in co-ordination with, not in line with" Ukrainian election plans.

Compare point 9 of Minsk protocol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_Protocol
Now who's lying - BBC or Putin?

And I don't like the thread title - The empire struck back on August 24. Now it strikes on.

[Viking]

So this is what 'shirtfront' means.

[Greyblades]

Man, the koala on the right looks really uncomfortable. And what happened to thier fur?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Ukraine should let the Eastern regions secede. They cannot out-compete Russian (which is what the current fight is, regardless of how "officially" or not Russians are directly involved) resources without an outside ally willing to risk bloodshed in large quantities to assist them. Such an ally does not exist.

Fighting it out would be legally correct and the braver choice....just won't work though.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Ukraine should let the Eastern regions secede. They cannot out-compete Russian (which is what the current fight is, regardless of how "officially" or not Russians are directly involved) resources without an outside ally willing to risk bloodshed in large quantities to assist them. Such an ally does not exist.

Fighting it out would be legally correct and the braver choice....just won't work though.

That's not entirely true.

Russia, as the aggressor, is fighting for gain whilst Ukraine is fighting for it's survival. If Ukraine allows secession now the Rebels will push to take the remains of the contested regions. If Ukraine can bleed Russia and the rebels enough over the summer they can stall the offensive and possibly make some gains.

Added to this, whilst Ukraine is not exactly a bastion of democracy and due process the rebel areas are led by Junta's holding obvious sham elections using rifles and potatoes. Whilst there will be majority-rebel areas in both provinces there will also be pro-Kiev areas and the prospect of partition is more bloodshed within those provinces as undesirable "traitors" are expelled.

In related news - all government-run services in rebel held areas are being withdrawn: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30072483

It's only logical, for as much as it will hurt the common man Kiev can't subsidise rebel rule.

Meanwhile we see once again what a poor Ally the Americans and their Western vassals make - don't trust the yanks they won't lift a finger to help anyone.

[Sarmatian]

That would mean that all wars between nation states were in fact a genocide.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

[Brenus]

"This was enough to qualify it as genocide." Yeap, it is exactly how The Hague twisted the concept in order to fit the bill.
So my grand-father killing Germans was committing genocide as he didn't killed any English or American, he was clearly aiming at only one ethnic/confessional group which happened to be France's invaders.

[Gilrandir]

That would mean that all wars between nation states were in fact a genocide.

Again, in war you kill indisriminate people fighting against you without asking thier nationality.

"This was enough to qualify it as genocide." Yeap, it is exactly how The Hague twisted the concept in order to fit the bill.
So my grand-father killing Germans was committing genocide as he didn't killed any English or American, he was clearly aiming at only one ethnic/confessional group which happened to be France's invaders.

You mean he gathered all members of a community, chose German males among them and shot them? Wow, what details we learn!

[Sarmatian]

Again, in war you kill indisriminate people fighting against you without asking thier nationality.

And all men of military age were killed indiscriminately. Those men used the status of UN protected enclave to raid surrounding communities, only to fall back, hide behind UN troops and do it all over again. And again, and again, and again... After they were beaten, Bosnian Serb forces killed all POWs.

None of it makes it excusable.
None of it makes it a genocide. One could call it a massacre, a war crime, a crime against humanity, take your pick, but not a genocide...

If that is the definition of a genocide, Every.Single.Nation on earth has committed genocide multiple times. Ukrainians against the Poles and Jews, Poles against Ukrainians, English against Arabs, Americans against Native Americans, Vietnamis, Iraqis, Afghanis and Mexicans, Germany against just about every nation the conquered in ww2, Russians against Poles and various Asian tribes/countries, Greeks against the Turks, Turks against the Greeks, all European colonizers against native population on all continents and so on.

To label it a genocide is supposed to justify western policies and actions during the nineties. It is insulting to those who truly were victims of genocide to compare it.

[Brenus]

"You mean he gathered all members of a community, chose German males among them and shot them?" Much better! The community identified itself in wearing green/grey uniforms (men and women),so the choice was easy to do, and gathered in buildings, train or lorries. He just have to blow-up the trains/lorries, then finish off the job with light machine-guns.

[Gilrandir]

And all men of military age were killed indiscriminately.

I heard that they weren't just men of military age, but Muslim/Bosniaks of military age.

[rvg]

And all men of military age were killed indiscriminately. Those men used the status of UN protected enclave to raid surrounding communities, only to fall back, hide behind UN troops and do it all over again. And again, and again, and again... After they were beaten, Bosnian Serb forces killed all POWs.

None of it makes it excusable.
None of it makes it a genocide. One could call it a massacre, a war crime, a crime against humanity, take your pick, but not a genocide...

If that is the definition of a genocide, Every.Single.Nation on earth has committed genocide multiple times. Ukrainians against the Poles and Jews, Poles against Ukrainians, English against Arabs, Americans against Native Americans, Vietnamis, Iraqis, Afghanis and Mexicans, Germany against just about every nation the conquered in ww2, Russians against Poles and various Asian tribes/countries, Greeks against the Turks, Turks against the Greeks, all European colonizers against native population on all continents and so on.

To label it a genocide is supposed to justify western policies and actions during the nineties. It is insulting to those who truly were victims of genocide to compare it.

Couldn't agree more. It's a simple matter of shooting first so you don't get shot. Remove kebab before kebab removes you.

[Hooahguy]

Thanks for the info! You wouldn't happen to have any links to articles that I could read that talks about this, would you? Nothing I found is anywhere close to the kind of analysis you are giving. Or maybe my google-fu just sucks.

[Montmorency]

Don't forget economic ties. Aside from historic relationship or current Russian business presence/land ownership, t simply makes sense at this point for Greece to court Russian investment, not just because it creates potential political leverage in the EU - not because Greece is suddenly Russia's ally, but because Russia can improve its hopes of building that new pipeline - but also because, hey, capital investment either way (hopefully).

[Crandar]

Montmorancy made a great point, SYRIZA made a half-hearted attempt to attract Russian investors, but they declined, in order not to piss Europe even more. The pipelines between Russia-Turkey-Greece and Burgos-Dedeagac have long been planned, but never materialised due to our conflicting interests with NATO.
A popular conspiracy theory.

Thanks for the info! You wouldn't happen to have any links to articles that I could read that talks about this, would you? Nothing I found is anywhere close to the kind of analysis you are giving. Or maybe my google-fu just sucks.

Well, what I said is mainly based on mainstream greek newspapers, the communist newspaper "Radical" and my general knowledge about the pest of greek nationalism. So, I'll try to find some english-speaking sites, but don't expect much.

The only part that is easily sourceable is that we got Thessaly after the Berlin Conference* (1878) and that the Ottoman-Russian War of 1828-9, practically forced the Sultan to recognise the greek independence.


*In that war, Greece obviously wanted to ally herself with Russia, but her military weakness and the British fleet prevented her from doing so. Finally, they found the courage to declare war against the Ottoman Empire and when they did, they learnt that a ceasefire had been signed some hours ago between the Czar and the Sultan. Everyone panicked and feared that we would be steamrolled by the entire Ottoman military machine, but Russia, France and Britain intervened and stopped one of the shortest war in history...

[Gilrandir]

Montmorancy made a great point, SYRIZA made a half-hearted attempt to attract Russian investors, but they declined, in order not to piss Europe even more. The pipelines between Russia-Turkey-Greece and Burgos-Dedeagac have long been planned, but never materialised due to our conflicting interests with NATO.

I think if Russia had some money to spare at that moment Tsipras' shuttling between it and NATO/EU might have brought him more political dividends. He was wise enough to see the economic handicap of current Russia not to pin his hopes on any projects it promised to finance.

[Hooahguy]

Well, what I said is mainly based on mainstream greek newspapers, the communist newspaper "Radical" and my general knowledge about the pest of greek nationalism. So, I'll try to find some english-speaking sites, but don't expect much.

Thanks. Would you be able to post a few links? I dont read Greek but Im sure I can run some articles through Google translate and get some good up to date info.

[Crandar]

Thanks. Would you be able to post a few links? I dont read Greek but Im sure I can run some articles through Google translate and get some good up to date info.

http://foreignaffairs.gr/articles/69...smos?page=show
http://www.xryshaygh.com/enimerosi/v...ai-chrush-augh
http://www.rizospastis.gr/story.do?id=8595498
http://www.novafm106.gr/articles/pol...terrorism.html
http://www.rizospastis.gr/story.do?id=7859910
http://www.rizospastis.gr/story.do?id=7851660
http://www.rizospastis.gr/page.do?pu...5399&pageNo=13

I'll try to find more. Be careful with the translation, because google is very problematic, when it comes to greek, due to the very complicated nature of our grammar.

[Gilrandir]

Just in case anyone is still interested and to keep people updated:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/w...imea/72629660/
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/0...014154471.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0RP17O20150925
http://www.dw.com/en/poland-furious-...wii/a-18743484

[Lizardo]

Ok I have just watched a 2 hour documentary detailing the Crimea debacle. I wish to share it with you.

[Gilrandir]

Ok I have just watched a 2 hour documentary detailing the Crimea debacle. I wish to share it with you.

We saw it way back. And had a heated debate on what Putin said.

[Gilrandir]

And the French Senate pushes on with the urge to lift sanctions against Russia:
http://www.rferl.org/content/french-.../27787635.html

[Gilrandir]

More bullying from Russia:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/15/wo...ones.html?_r=3

[Seamus Fermanagh]

As far as I can tell, there is still nobody aside from Ukraine willing to go to the mat -- read bleed a lot -- to counteract Russia's annexation of these territories. As Ukraine lacks the capability to do much aside from preserve what it has preserved thus far, this is more or less fait accompli at this point. Real politik says move on and accept it. Like it or not, legal or not, I am pretty sure that this is a done deal.