Quote Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr View Post

1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
2. The universe began to exist.
3. Therefore the universe has a cause.
4. Therefore the existence of the universe necessitates the existence of a self-existent creator who created the universe.*
5. Since time, space and all natural laws are properties of the universe, this creator must transcend these properties and any temporal limitations.
6. In relation to the universe, this creator must therefore be timeless, formless, all-present and all-powerful.
7. Such a figure would therefore be said to be omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and immaterial.
8. This is the Abrahamic concept of God.

I maybe haven't quite followed the protocol for setting out philosophical arguments, but I'm just a layman trying to express my thoughts. I guess by extending the cosmological argument like this, the hope is to shut down arguments by atheists about how this creator could be the Flying Spaghetti Monster or other silly things. The idea is to deduce the qualities of God in relation to the universe by virtue of the nature of their relationship.

Thoughts?

* Although it could be said that a universe might be created by an existing universe which was not self-existent, ultimately we will have to get back to who created the first universe.
1 - ok
2 - the universe began to exist "in it's current form", we have proof of this - we call this the big bang....there is no way to know what was before...maybe it always existed, maybe it is just the natural state of things that the universe exists and it always did. so I don´t agree. and there is no need to make stuff up if we don´t know it.
3- comes from 2 - don´t really agree.
4- uhm....no. Objection! leading the witn....uhm..the argument.
5- are they properties of the universe itself? or just constraints that everything must follow?? anyway, I don´t get the "must", and it's starting to look like you're trying to start cherrypicking "facts" to fit into a "logical" solution you like.
6- again, cherrypicking, the "timeless" part is a cop out, pulled out of nowhere in an attempt to not have to deal with the logic question "if everything needs a maker then who made god"?
7- it might also need to be a giant pink kangaroo with blue polkadots that likes to play bridge.....if you're going to make stuff up go wild man!
8- it is the concept of many gods.....it's the basic concept of a godlike mythological figure.