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Thread: Greek Elections announced for the 25th of January

  1. #1
    Member Member Crandar's Avatar
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    Default Greek Elections announced for the 25th of January

    http://www.theguardian.com/business/...-vote-election

    So, after the government failed to elect her canditate for president, there will be elections in Greece after a month. CORAL is expected to win them, but it's impossible it will manage to form a government, without co-operating with another party. Same applies for the second party, as the winner of the elections gets a huge bonus of 50 deputies.


    Poll Explanation:

    1. New Democracy: Center-Right. In the begining, they anathematized the Memorandum, but when they won the last elections, they evolved into their most loyal advocates. Government: 1974-81, 1989-1993, 2004-09, 2012-2014.

    2. Pan-Greek Social Movement: Despite its name, it belongs to the center. The first party that adopted the Memorandum's policies, it's also part of the current government and also a supporter of Memorandum, also not as much as New Democracy is. Government: 1981-89, 1993-2004, 2009-2014.

    3. Coalition of the Radical Left: Left. In the past, it was part of the eurocommunist movement, it's now a bit more moderate and almost always present in the Parliament, but with extremely few deputies. However, since the 2011, when PASM started to collapse, it has been gradually growing to become the most popular party, at the moment. Against Memorandum, but not as persistent as it used to be.

    4. Independent Greeks: Right, but a bit far, not like Lepen or the Swedish Democrats, though. A split from New Democracy, it's against Memorandum, advocating a more patriotic policy, but it has a re[utation of endorsing conspiracy theories.

    5. Democratic Left: Center Left. A split from CORAL since 2010 (CORAL was tiny, back then), it is in favour of a moderate left policy of a more decisive negotiation with the EU. It used to be a part of the coalition government with (PASM and ND), from 2012 to 2013, but it left, due to the abolishment of the state's official TV channel.

    6. River: Center. 1 year old party, formed around its leader, a famous and respected by many (not me, I consider him a bit slow, let's say) journalist, who is in favour of a moderate Memorandum and a technocratic government.

    7. Communist Party of Greece: Communism. Unlike the respective parties of Spain or France, CPG, established since 1918, is still a supporter of the Soviet Union. Definitely against eurocommunism or revisionism, despises CORAL or the EU and advocates the abolishment of the current economic relations. Always present in the Parliament.

    8. Golden Dawn: Nazism, Fascism. Neo-nazi skinheads with militia units terrorizing leftists and immigrants (killing some of them) since the fall of Junta. They were pretty weak, but they multiplied their power, since 2011, having a considerable presence in the Parliament.

    9. Other parties include the Ecologists, Act (conservative party, in favour of the memorandum) or ANTLECOO (Anticapitalist and Left Co-operation for the Overthrow, radical left party), but they are not expected to get in the next Parliament.

    EDIT: That's a personal favour, but could any of you re-post the thread in the Political Mudpit of the Total War Center?
    There is already a thread about the elections, but it's so poorly made (something expected from a Cretan, if I may say so), that it's not going to generate any meaningful discussion.
    The moderators might be convinced to merge them, instead of closing the new one. Thanks, in advance.
    Last edited by Crandar; 01-02-2015 at 15:12.

  2. #2
    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greek Elections announced for the 25th of January

    Here's prediction. It doesn't matter who the Greeks vote for but if the newly elected government doesn't do what the EU tell them, then an 'appointed' government will be put in place by the EU.

    All for the sake of stability you understand.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

    "The purpose of a university education for Left / Liberals is to attain all the politically correct attitudes towards minorties, and the financial means to live as far away from them as possible."

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  3. #3
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greek Elections announced for the 25th of January

    That's no different from how a bank will foreclose your home and let you live under a bridge if you cannot pay back the money they talked you into loaning in the first place. You can explain almost everything with a troublesome childhood, except if you owe someone powerful(/rich) money.


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  4. #4
    Member Member Crandar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greek Elections announced for the 25th of January

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    Here's prediction. It doesn't matter who the Greeks vote for but if the newly elected government doesn't do what the EU tell them, then an 'appointed' government will be put in place by the EU.

    All for the sake of stability you understand.
    The only party that it's against the European Union is the Communist Party of Greece and possibly the Golden Dawn, but I am not sure. CORAL's contradiction between his pro-EU sympathies and "revolutionary" tendancies is used by the government to undermine its reliability.
    Also, don't be shy, do particpate in the poll.

  5. #5
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greek Elections announced for the 25th of January

    What for

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    Banned Kadagar_AV's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greek Elections announced for the 25th of January

    I'd like to hear more about the "New Dawn"...

    They come off as raging nazis in the media here... And a quick glance seem to strengthen that look...

    Would you mind explaining this partys stance, and how the general population look at it?

  7. #7
    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greek Elections announced for the 25th of January

    It really does not matter as long as you have neo-nazi's and Communists in the same parliament together. Democracy only works with compromise, and those are two groups that never will. Greece is screwed until the public decides to pick more responsible leadership and parties.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

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    Banned Kadagar_AV's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greek Elections announced for the 25th of January

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    It really does not matter as long as you have neo-nazi's and Communists in the same parliament together. Democracy only works with compromise, and those are two groups that never will. Greece is screwed until the public decides to pick more responsible leadership and parties.
    Uh, that seems like a ill written summary of greek politics..

    It all depends on... Oh, I should just shut up and have a greek explain :)

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    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greek Elections announced for the 25th of January

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    Uh, that seems like a ill written summary of greek politics..

    It all depends on... Oh, I should just shut up and have a greek explain :)
    Which part was incorrect, the part about Nazi and communist parties being elected, or the part about Greece having incompetent elected officials who created their own debt issues?
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

  10. #10
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greek Elections announced for the 25th of January

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    I'd like to hear more about the "New Dawn"...

    They come off as raging nazis in the media here... And a quick glance seem to strengthen that look...

    Would you mind explaining this partys stance, and how the general population look at it?
    They really are just that. It's Golden Dawn by the way
    Last edited by Fragony; 01-03-2015 at 06:55.

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    Member Member Crandar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greek Elections announced for the 25th of January

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    I'd like to hear more about the "New Dawn"...

    They come off as raging nazis in the media here... And a quick glance seem to strengthen that look...

    Would you mind explaining this partys stance, and how the general population look at it?
    As Fragony said, it's Golden Dawn and I personally view them as fascist thugs. From time to time, they organize a couple of bullying expeditions, where they beat leftists and immigrants up and sometimes they kill them.
    Of course, some Greeks (mainly from Crete and generally Southern Greece) enjoy their brutal approach to our society's problems.
    For example, the prime minister's main consultant was caught giving advice on the GD's second in-command on how to avoid the charges raised against him, while the Minsiter of Education and Religion praised the same member of Golden Dawn for beating Garyfallia (it means Carnation) Canelle, a CPG's deputy on a politcs TV show, because she was speaking too much.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    What for
    Why not? Statistical samples can always be informative, especially for the poll's creator.
    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    It really does not matter as long as you have neo-nazi's and Communists in the same parliament together. Democracy only works with compromise, and those are two groups that never will. Greece is screwed until the public decides to pick more responsible leadership and parties.
    I'm not the best person to objectively speak about the Communist Party, but even the most conservative newspapers respect it the most, although they of course despise its ideology.
    The reason for this is that they regularly recognize their mistakes and are the most organized party, so their suggestions never contradict themselves.
    His members organise the most well-guarded protests, a reason why anarchist groups tend to attack them more frequently than they attack the riot police, having killed a communist, once.

  12. #12
    Banned Kadagar_AV's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greek Elections announced for the 25th of January

    Thanks Crandar, Golden Dawn seem tugish...

    I heard Angela Merkel just opened up for a "Grexit", Greek exist from the Euro monetary union... Thoughts?

  13. #13
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greek Elections announced for the 25th of January

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    Thanks Crandar, Golden Dawn seem tugish...

    I heard Angela Merkel just opened up for a "Grexit", Greek exist from the Euro monetary union... Thoughts?
    That former stasi-imformer Merkel is full of it. She knows perfectly well that it's very unlikely that Greece will leave the eurozone. They can't be forced out by EU-law no matter that they absolutily shouldn't be in it.

    I feel sorry for the ordinary Greek.
    Last edited by Fragony; 01-04-2015 at 17:19.

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  14. #14
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greek Elections announced for the 25th of January

    Err, as much as I know, the Party leading to win the Greek Elections is not the Communist Party or the Nazi one, but a leftist alliance.
    And I hope they will keep their promises to cancelled the illegitimate debt imposed by EU, and finally implement a economic policy that works, unlike the one actually implemented, which increases the debt, increases unemployment and sold the country to foreign and national vultures.
    And there is no way to oblige Greece to get out of the EU. So, only negotiations can do, so perhaps, better to negotiate the cancellation of the debt.
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

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    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greek Elections announced for the 25th of January

    Undecided.

    Under other circumstances I'd have said that CORAL / SYRIZA at least deserves a shot, if only for the reason that the two traditional parties (New Democracy and Pan-Greek Social Movement) are both responsible for decades of mismanagement that lead to...you know. Some of the criticism Greece has gotten over the years might be too harsh, but it's still my impression that the country is where it is now because of a dysfunctional political culture. For meaningful change, it might be necessary for an outsider party to take the reins for a while, even if it has an agenda that I don't particulary care for.

    On the other hand, Greece can't financially support itself right now under the euro without outside help. CORAL / SYRIZA like the last time seems to be promising they'll keep Greece in the eurozone while renegotiating the existing agreements to Greece's benefit, ignoring that most foreign leaders are against the idea. It seems likely that if CORAL / SYRIZA forms a government, it won't take long for it to split between opponents of austerity and those who've come to realize that austerity was, and is, inevitable.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greek Elections announced for the 25th of January

    Austerity is not inevitable, That is a myth, and a deadly one for millions of humans.
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

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    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greek Elections announced for the 25th of January

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    Austerity is not inevitable, That is a myth, and a deadly one for millions of humans.
    Well when the Greeks gerrymandered their way into the Euro in the first place, I'd say that austerity was inevitable. They should go back to the Drachma.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

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  18. #18
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greek Elections announced for the 25th of January

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    Well when the Greeks gerrymandered their way into the Euro in the first place, I'd say that austerity was inevitable. They should go back to the Drachma.
    Yeah, people tend to forget that the Greeks are only in this because they faked their balances since they weren't really eligible to join in the first place. Now it's everybody else's fault of course...


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  19. #19
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greek Elections announced for the 25th of January

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralizec View Post
    For meaningful change, it might be necessary for an outsider party to take the reins for a while.
    Read this back 3 times for me please.

    Have you lost your mind.
    Last edited by Fragony; 01-06-2015 at 12:33.

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  20. #20
    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greek Elections announced for the 25th of January

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    Austerity is not inevitable, That is a myth, and a deadly one for millions of humans.
    Yes, it is.

  21. #21
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greek Elections announced for the 25th of January

    Isnt the need for austerity based on a calculation error a college kid was able to spot yet the makers didnt?

    Or are we talking about the more nebulous definition of austerity where it's just the general need to cut down on excess to weather out hard times?
    Last edited by Greyblades; 01-07-2015 at 06:38.
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  22. #22
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greek Elections announced for the 25th of January

    Austerity doesn't work, because concept is absurd.
    Firing people, creating unemployment at massive scale is just shooting the taxes revenue in the foot. A little bit like the concept that consumers and workers are different population. Hey, this is a news: the guys buying are the ones who work. So put them out of work, they stop to buy, so your taxes income go down. So you have to borrow more to the private banking system the previous administration(s) put on power... Isn't it marvelous?
    And you still have people who believe against all evidences that austerity work... 7 years for Greece, and debt increased, un-employment exploded, rich became richer. Yeah...!!!
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

  23. #23
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greek Elections announced for the 25th of January

    "Well when the Greeks gerrymandered their way into the Euro in the first place, I'd say that austerity was inevitable. They should go back to the Drachma." And who help them in doing this? The actual Mario Draghi, head of the European Central bank...
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

  24. #24
    Member Member Crandar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greek Elections announced for the 25th of January

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    Austerity doesn't work, because concept is absurd.
    When we wonder if austerity does or doesn't work, the first thing we need to think is for whom is it supposed to work. The members of a society rarely have common interests and an "Austere Greece" is a great example:
    After the implementation of the Troika's measures, the percentages of the poor and the rich people have skyrocketed; the number of millionaires has doubled since 2008. Consequently, I believe that the austerity has been proven quite beneficial for the interests represented by the officials who implement it.
    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    Well when the Greeks gerrymandered their way into the Euro in the first place, I'd say that austerity was inevitable. They should go back to the Drachma.
    The funny thing is that the Prime-minister (Constantine Semites) and the economic advisor (John Stournaras, who was also the Minister of the State's Treasury, from 2012 to 2014) responsible for this fraud are now considered by mainstream media very successful politicians, to whom if the public has listened, Greee would not face the threat of bankruptcy.

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    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greek Elections announced for the 25th of January

    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

    "The purpose of a university education for Left / Liberals is to attain all the politically correct attitudes towards minorties, and the financial means to live as far away from them as possible."

  26. #26
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greek Elections announced for the 25th of January

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Yeah, people tend to forget that the Greeks are only in this because they faked their balances since they weren't really eligible to join in the first place. Now it's everybody else's fault of course...
    ...because everyone knew about it.

    More to the point if AS I SAID IN 2010 Greece had been helped in leaving the Euro then they would not be where they are now.

    Despite what Brenus may say it is an inevitable truth that with outgoing are more than incomings belt tightening is required but the amount of belt tightening is dictated not just by the shortfall but also by the available support and the ability to offset the debt.

    Greece was given one option and one option only - reduce spending until the budget balances - and this was obviously impossible.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greek Elections announced for the 25th of January

    The government sector is actually a key one for innovation and investment. Historically governments have increased spending when private investment has trailed off.

    The problem is government involvement is anathema to certain political clicks and the austerity publication was taken up with a rallying cry. It still is even though it has been shown to be mathematically and historically unsound.
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    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greek Elections announced for the 25th of January

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio View Post
    The government sector is actually a key one for innovation and investment. Historically governments have increased spending when private investment has trailed off.
    Personally, I have no problem with anti-cyclical spending.

    However a lot of people bring it up only when the economy is faring poorly. They rarely bring it up when things are going up. Because a true policy of anti-cyclical spending would also require governments to realize budget surpluses in good times, to:

    A) moderate growth in the good times, to prevent a sharp "boom and bust" effect in the long run
    B) ensure that you have saved for stimulus spending when the economy contracts, or that others will lend it to you because they trust you to pay them back

    Austerity is unmistakenably bad for Greece (or anyone else for that matter) but it's also inevitable for the plain reason that for deficit spending you need others who are willing to lend you money.
    Last edited by Kralizec; 01-15-2015 at 21:45.

  29. #29
    Member Member Crandar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greek Elections announced for the 25th of January

    I must say that's the first time I see another supporter of the CPG, apart from me, of course, Leet Eriksson.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralizec View Post
    Austerity is unmistakenably bad for Greece (or anyone else for that matter) but it's also inevitable for the plain reason that for deficit spending you need others who are willing to lend you money.
    Honestly, I watch people wasting their money so often, that I consider austerity beneficial for curing our immaturity.
    Those guys are usually called "Ellenares" (negative form of Greek) and although they are mainly Southerners or from Crete, you can meet them even in the North.
    Their classical trait is listening to horribly loud music while driving and the worst of them are either Cretans or people from Laconia.
    That's not random, of course, as Laconia and Crete were terribly backward regions, while Macedonia prospered under the Ottoman rule.
    In fact, in Laconia, most of the people are either royalists or Golden Dawn supporters. Despical creatures, really.

  30. #30
    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greek Elections announced for the 25th of January

    Quote Originally Posted by Crandar View Post
    royalists
    Is that still a thing in Greece? I'm a bit surprised.

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