Weird case at our southern neighbours

[Fragony]

A convicted pervert is granted euthanesia because prison-life is too hard for him. I don't know the specifics and would love to hear them. Euthanesia should only be possible when there is absolutily no chance someone is terminally ill and if there is absolutily no hope of recovery, but that's just me, gut says that this is an easy way out he does not deserve. I won't go into what he did but it's pretty damn horrible. I would like to hear your thoughts on this as I am kinda torn on multiple levels.

[Crandar]

It's called euthanasia, from the words "eu" (good/easy) and "thanatos" (death).

A link about the case would be welcome, in order to learn about the details. I googled it, but nothing came out.

[Fragony]

It's called euthanasia, from the words "eu" (good/easy) and "thanatos" (death).

A link about the case would be welcome, in order to learn about the details. I googled it, but nothing came out.

Yeah I know that. I am curious about the details myself when it comes to Belgian law. we got Belgiums here so I want to know how this makes sense.

[Proletariat]

http://www.newsweek.com/belgian-murd...request-270414

I think this is it.

are there any therapies for people with criminal sexual urges? if you're a pedophile and recognize this as a teenager and don't want to hurt anyone, is there something offered anywhere to get help?

Newsweek here is saying that since Belgium didn't offer him any therapy to deal with his problems he'd like to die instead. my gut instinct is to be fine with that but his right to die isn't something I'd go out marching for either. guess I'm ambivalent as long as he's not able to hurt or kill anyone else.

[Husar]

That seems to be the right story, thanks.

As for whether that is appropriate or a good thing, it depends. If he cannot change and his "condition" drives him to do horrible things or torments him if he doesn't, then I guess his solution is not the worst one. I'm not sure whether he "deserves an easy way out" or not, in case he actually has such a condition, I'd say noone deserves to be like that in the first place.

[KukriKhan]

Say know the have can?

[I of the Storm]

Fine with me. He's not the first "unusual" euthanasia case in Belgium.
The actual outrage IMO is the fact that he's been in prison for 30 years and no one cared to try a therapy. Plain wrong.
While pedophilia is de jure a crime, it's a disorder in the first place. Therefore therapy is applicable. Whether that will be successful is a different question.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I read about this.

I suppose the question is does this serve justice?

This man was given a whole life sentence for rape and murder, allowing him to end his life in effect shortens his sentence and reduces his punishment. Treatment in this case is a Victorians concept, it doesn't work, you can't treat these people.

Once someone like this becomes a danger to society you can only lock them up for their natural life.

I have a problem with shortening that natural life from a justice perspective.

[Montmorency]

PVC, that basically only works if you see the point of the prison system as an institution for extracting suffering from its inmates.

Such a system is a costly distraction from the perspective of good policy, and is certainly not in accord with Christian "justice" anyway.

Treatment in this case is a Victorians concept, it doesn't work, you can't treat these people.

Well, I do at least agree that Victorian-era treatments wouldn't be very helpful...

[Husar]

So basically they have an untreatable condition and if they should ever make the mistake to give in to that (given that it's supposedly untreatable, that can only be a matter of time), we should punish them as harshly as possible for having that untreatable condition in the first place? While we're at it, why don't we just euthanize them at birth once we have found a way to detect the condition early? Because that would ease the suffering that they deserve for the inevitable crimes they will commit in the future?

[Fragony]

Should be miisundersting when the parents kill him theirselve. I ssee no reason why I should be really. I will absolirly kill you if you if you do that to those I love. I see nothing wrong in that.

[drone]

Maybe we could put them all on an island...

[Montmorency]

What, no female pedophiles?

...

And then some of them have kids on the island.

...

[Greyblades]

So basically they have an untreatable condition and if they should ever make the mistake to give in to that (given that it's supposedly untreatable, that can only be a matter of time), we should punish them as harshly as possible for having that untreatable condition in the first place? While we're at it, why don't we just euthanize them at birth once we have found a way to detect the condition early? Because that would ease the suffering that they deserve for the inevitable crimes they will commit in the future?

Why would we euthanize them post birth? If we could find out a person is a psychopath or a paedophile through methods that doent require verbal communication we could probably find out at the "still able to abort without all but the diehardest fundies complaining" stage.

[Husar]

Why would we euthanize them post birth? If we could find out a person is a psychopath or a paedophile through methods that doent require verbal communication we could probably find out at the "still able to abort without all but the diehardest fundies complaining" stage.

I meant at or before, don't worry, I also support pre-crime.

[Greyblades]

Eh, crime's a choice, this is genetics. I'd rather they found a way to change it same as all other birth defects, but I'm pro choice and this would be one of the most legitimate reasons to abort.

[Sir Moody]

Eh, crime's a choice, this is genetics. I'd rather they found a way to change it same as all other birth defects, but I'm pro choice and this would be one of the most legitimate reasons to abort.

Id be careful of jumping on the Genetics train too quickly - while it is possible it is also entirely likely Pedophillia is totally unrelated to genetics (a fact supported by a lack of evidence that it is Hereditary).

[Husar]

Eh, crime's a choice, this is genetics. I'd rather they found a way to change it same as all other birth defects, but I'm pro choice and this would be one of the most legitimate reasons to abort.

But having sex with a child is a crime and a direct result of being a paedophile.
And since you can't treat them as PVC said, they will all inevitably become criminals anyway, no?

[Fragony]

But having sex with a child is a crime and a direct result of being a paedophile.
And since you can't treat them as PVC said, they will all inevitably become criminals anyway, no?

I like black women, just fancy them. Doesn't mean I drag them into an alley. I am no psychiatrist but pedosexuals at least seem to think they can just grab what they want just because they want it. They perfectly understand they are inflicting harm, but do it anyway. It's not a sexual preference but narcism to give into what pleases you despite that you know that ypu are only hurting others.

[Husar]

I like black women, just fancy them. Doesn't mean I drag them into an alley. I am no psychiatrist but pedosexuals at least seem to think they can just grab what they want just because they want it. They perfectly understand they are inflicting harm, but do it anyway. It's not a sexual preference but narcism to give into what pleases you despite that you know that ypu are only hurting others.

But if that narcissism is part of their condition and most seem to fall for it sooner or later, then they all deserve to rot in prison for as long as possible. If we wait until a pedo is 57 before we find out about what he has done, he may have harmed a lot of people. Better to put suspects into cages from birth or primary school on to:
a) increase their period of suffering
b) save all the potential victims

[Sir Moody]

I like black women, just fancy them. Doesn't mean I drag them into an alley. I am no psychiatrist but pedosexuals at least seem to think they can just grab what they want just because they want it. They perfectly understand they are inflicting harm, but do it anyway. It's not a sexual preference but narcism to give into what pleases you despite that you know that ypu are only hurting others.

Id disagree.

There are vast numbers of Pedophiles who never progress beyond the desire stage (looking at images etc) and more still who suppress their urges entirely.

What makes some Pedophiles progress to the actual abuse of children is probably not dissimilar to the progression of a Rapist - and narcissism is a common trait assigned to Rapists which would suggest that the willingness to act on their urges is separate from their sexual desires.

[Greyblades]

Id be careful of jumping on the Genetics train too quickly - while it is possible it is also entirely likely Pedophillia is totally unrelated to genetics (a fact supported by a lack of evidence that it is Hereditary).

We were talking what-if's, and the hypothetical situation is that at least one form of paedophillia is a result of genetics and can be detected without behavior analysis.

But having sex with a child is a crime and a direct result of being a paedophile.
And since you can't treat them as PVC said, they will all inevitably become criminals anyway, no?

Inevitable? I dont know enough to say, but the act is all but impossible without the actor having some form of paedophillia is it not? I'd like to think it's not inevitable but I'd also think that anyone suffering from it are fundementally doomed to misery in one form or another* because of circumstance outside thier control. If they prefer death than to continue I find it hard not to sympathise and I feel if there was such an easy way to prevent future sufferers like abortion or genetic alteration it would be a mercy.

As for psychopathy, it's not as easy for me. A psychopath is by definition incapable of the sort of guilt, shame and self loathing that a paedophile will likely feel and unless they act out they wont gain the ire and/or retribution of society. It is theoretically possible they can live thier lives without suffering themselves or causing it in others, thus I feel less inclined to believe that any incarcerated psycopath is the victim of circumstance outside thier control wishing for death to escape a hopless situation.

Indeed the nature of the condition makes me inclined to believe the opposite: that wishing for death once behind the bars of a prison is a ploy to escape responsibility and full retribution for actions for which they are entirely at fault.

Of course a paedophile in the same situation is most likely doing the same thing and I am predisposed to believe that a paedophile acting on his impulses is ultimately due to his or her choice to do so. Regardless of how powerful those "natural"** urges are; we all have to deal with urges and the inability to deny urges they know would cause suffering in others is entirely a failing on the perpritrator's part regardless of how socially acceptable those urges are. Thus I honestly I cannot agree that prisoners should be allowed to self terminate in either category.

If they wish to kill themselves before they do act, I can sympathise with the paedophile but if it's after they have molested/raped a child they deserve to reap what they sow.



*either in the vien of the shame and self loathing gays suffered from pre de-stigmatization (and some still do) or from the retribution society will dole out for acting on the impulses.

**By god do I hate how that term is used these days, Nature is fully capable of being frakking evil and goddamn disgusting, why the hell should we glorify or condemn anything just on the factor of whether it happened before humans came along? You want to talk about the risk of side effects in GM food or the negative digestive attributes of gluten, go right ahead but if all you have to say is "it's not natural" you can go right to your all natural hell.

[Husar]

Eh, psychopaths are incapable of sympathizing with others, they have pretty much no innate sense for morals.
If their condition is found, they learn how to behave and can adapt to that, but if someone they do not have a very personal, selfish interest in were to drown, they would feel no desire to help, at all.
They have no desire to murder but would probably see nothing wrong with it if it furthers their own interests. And wouldn't lose a minute of sleep over it. However, all of this is also not their fault, they've just been wired differently and who are we to claim that our wiring is the better one?
It's also not like "normal" people cannot turn off their moral compass and murder someone for very selfish reasons.

[Fragony]

Id disagree.

There are vast numbers of Pedophiles who never progress beyond the desire stage (looking at images etc) and more still who suppress their urges entirely.

What makes some Pedophiles progress to the actual abuse of children is probably not dissimilar to the progression of a Rapist - and narcissism is a common trait assigned to Rapists which would suggest that the willingness to act on their urges is separate from their sexual desires.

That is why I say pedosexuals, and not pedophiles. I can respect a pedophile as it must be really hard to be one without giving into it, they can't help it that they are pedophiles probably. Giving into it is a different matter though.

Good book, 'The end of Alice', kinda twisted. Forgot who wrote it but it's good.

[Gilrandir]

Good book, 'The end of Alice', kinda twisted. Forgot who wrote it but it's good.

Those were the memoirs of Alice Cooper.

[Kadagar_AV]

We are having 2 discussions it seems... I'll answer both.



1. I don't think criminals should get a "get out of jail card" in themselves asking to die... If someone gets locked in for life, I think we as society should do our best to have this person still contribute to society...

There is job to be done, let them help. Supervised, of course.

IE, I heard that US prisoners have been used to fight forest fires... And from what I can tell, they did a good job AND took pride in their work.

To lock people up 24/7 is just stupid, have them repay their debt to society instead... Again, of course supervised.




2. Many phedophiles control their sexual lust, and are no threat to society. To then screen this would be unfair to the individual, and also of course a VERY slippery slope of what the state should be allowed to interfere with.

Is it really a problem if someone wanks thinking of young kids? Or if someone imagine his wife is 14 when they have sex?

It's only when they ACT on their sexual desire it becomes a problem. Am I in the wrong here?

[Fragony]

Not wrong to me, hence the difference between pedosexuals and pedophiles.

[Gilrandir]

To lock people up 24/7 is just stupid, have them repay their debt to society instead...

That could be justified in case they are in debt to SOCIETY. Most life sentences are given for "debts to PERSONS" (i.e. murders). How can they repay that debt?

[CrossLOPER]

That could be justified in case they are in debt to SOCIETY. Most life sentences are given for "debts to PERSONS" (i.e. murders). How can they repay that debt?

Make them do something useful?

[Gilrandir]

Make them do something useful?

For who? For the victim's family and friends? I guess the most useful thing they will come up with would be committing a suicide.