France Shoot-Out

[Husar]

Converting to christianity, good idea if you insist on getting harrased or worse. And I don't equate MUSLIMS with islam, they are other things, how many times must I say the exact same thing? Once again, a muslim doesn't necesarily submits to islam. Only a few submit to islam. That doesn't change what the islam is.

So just like catholics aren't christians then.

[Fragony]

So just like catholics aren't christians then.

What do I care what catholics are, it's much more interesting that they ought to be compared. You see, somehow somewhere, they serve for an excuse. can you explain that for me please. All religions can fuck theirselves as far as I am conserned, why not ask yourself why the the islam is so special, good luck with that excemption on your moral compass.

[Leet Eriksson]

What do I care what catholics are, it's much more interesting that they ought to be compared. You see, somehow somewhere, they serve for an excuse. can you explain that for me please. All religions can fuck theirselves as far as I am conserned, why not ask yourself why the the islam is so special, good luck with that excemption on your moral compass.

Because you have no idea what Islam or Muslims are. What the heck is this:

Converting to christianity, good idea if you insist on getting harrased or worse. And I don't equate MUSLIMS with islam, they are other things, how many times must I say the exact same thing? Once again, a muslim doesn't necesarily submits to islam. Only a few submit to islam. That doesn't change what the islam is.

Who made you arbiter here Grand Mullah Fragony?

[CrossLOPER]

What do I care what catholics are, it's much more interesting that they ought to be compared. You see, somehow somewhere, they serve for an excuse. can you explain that for me please. All religions can fuck theirselves as far as I am conserned, why not ask yourself why the the islam is so special, good luck with that excemption on your moral compass.

What do I care what African slave traders are, it's much more interesting that they ought to be compared. You see, somehow somewhere, they serve for an excuse. can you explain that for me please. All slavers people can fuck theirselves as far as I am conserned, why not ask yourself why the the white people are so special, good luck with that excemption on your moral compass.

See I can do it, too.

Who made you arbiter here Grand Mullah Fragony?

I would love for people like Frags to convert to Islam, and then act like they think Muslims should act.

[Leet Eriksson]

I would love for people like Frags to convert to Islam, and then act like they think Muslims should act.

I'd love it too, maybe he'd get out of his basement and go see people in public places, maybe learn new things about whats outside.

[Fragony]

My sometimex girlfriend ie from Teheran, I can only repeat.

[Husar]

What do I care what catholics are, it's much more interesting that they ought to be compared. You see, somehow somewhere, they serve for an excuse. can you explain that for me please. All religions can fuck theirselves as far as I am conserned, why not ask yourself why the the islam is so special, good luck with that excemption on your moral compass.

Islam is only special to you, because as Eriksson says, you have your own illusion of what it is.
If you could just stick to everyone else's definition of what islam is, maybe you'd realize that we do not see it as special.

[Leet Eriksson]

Islam is only special to you, because as Eriksson says, you have your own illusion of what it is.
If you could just stick to everyone else's definition of what islam is, maybe you'd realize that we do not see it as special.

Whats sad isn't really the loss of freedom of speech as it were, it is here to stay and everyone knows this, but people shouldn't die for what they say or do, and as much as bleeding heart as this sounds, you really cannot predict attacks from genuinely unstable people. Also there is this:

http://rt.com/news/220819-attack-mosque-france-paris/

Which just exacerbates the situation, and causes unnecessary tension.

Also i can't believe i'm saying this, but i am Muslim. A french friend of mine showed me the covers of CH magazines, they were offensive, i was offended, but should i do anything about it? hell no, what are words or cartoons going to do to me? nothing. It is their right to freedom of speech, what these terrorists did is wrong and is very much against the spirit of Islam, i kind of understand some of these covers despite their offensives, but one of them had the Prophet Muhammed being threatened by a knife and called an infidel by a terrorist, its almost surreal.

[Brenus]

“How about "be nice to everyone nonwithstanding his/her faith/absence of it"?” Great for me. It is what atheism is.

“Just tell them that they can convert to christianity then” Nope, they can’t. Death penalty.

[Gilrandir]

“How about "be nice to everyone nonwithstanding his/her faith/absence of it"?” Great for me. It is what atheism is.

So there is a basic tenet of atheism, after all, isn't there?

Among other news I heard that the perpetrators' families have been detained. Is it true? If it is, does it mean the police are taking hostages?

[classical_hero]

“How about "be nice to everyone nonwithstanding his/her faith/absence of it"?” Great for me. It is what atheism is.

I am just wondering how the victims of Stalin and Mao would feel about this statement. Considering the millions they killed.

As usual in the Muslim world is that they lash out at either the Jews or Christians. It is hardly surprising the only woman killed at CH was a woman of Jewish descent. And the attack on the Kosher market was part of the plan and many people wondered why female police officer was killed, but she was near a Jewish school, trying to protect it from attack and got killed as a result. But in countries where Islam is in control we are seeing attacks on Christians. http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com.au/...l#.VLwZWaKTJpg
Where they tagged this on the side, which was curiously missing from the English version. The Arabic means "God Damn you, o worshippers of the Cross."

[Brenus]

"I am just wondering how the victims of Stalin and Mao would feel about this statement. Considering the millions they killed." In the name of atheism? Do you put on Christianity the Belgium Congo genocide, as the King of Belgium was a Christian? Stalin was a former student in Religion, and no one knows what Mao did believe. Hey, your forgot Pol Pot, but at least you didn't put Hitler. That is usually what the ones trying the mix-up atheism and dictatorship do... Try again.

[Hax]

That just sickens me...there is no congruention between the subject spoken to in the first: the curse of God be uponyou (pl.) oh worshipper (sg.) of the Cross. The word for worshipper, ‘abd, should be in the plural: ‘abîd. Freedom of expression should be extended to people that make this kind of mistake in God's holy language.

But I digress. What is absolutely horrifying to see is the lengths to which people go to -- despite everything that has happened -- to still blame Charlie Hebdo for all this. It's the intellectual equivalent of saying "well when you wear skirts of that length, don't be surprised that you ended up raped". It's victim-blaming and it's horrific. To spin it into a pseudo-intellectual debate concerning the limitations of freedom of speech is pretty much just insulting. Personally, I'm getting tired of the people that try to take some kind of moral "high road" when it comes to these events, because we're not on the same wavelength.

To put it in different terms: we have all decided that in our respective societies (Dutch, French, English, German...etc) there should be the possibility for all people to express -- more-or-less without fear of repercussions -- our opinions freely. However, there is a serious problem when it comes to the reciprocity of this point of view: you feel that violent Islamists have the right to express their opinion. Violent Islamists feel that they have the right to express their opinion. So up unto that point everything's great. Express an opinion that is critical of this group of Islamists though, and you're risking your life.

Seeing the degree to which people on these forums go to slam Charlie Hebdo or French Republicanism is frankly just sickening. I can only speak for myself, but I have a huge respect to the history of satire in France, and the argument that the cartoons harm "the socio-economically marginalised group of French Muslims" is so incredibly daft that it just feels like trolling at one point -- especially when I see articles written by British journalists: maybe some of them are still feeling bad about the 100 year war. More seriously: I have no idea what feeds this kind of poorly-disguised anti-French sentiment.

To all those that say that radical Islamism -- yes, radical Islamism; not radical Islam -- is not a threat to Western society is fooling themselves. It's an incredibly naive thought that will only do harm. Does that mean that we should pre-emptively tone down criticis of a particular religion? That's insane. I have actually been positively surprised by the general response by and to the Muslim communities in Europe after the shooting, and I think it would be the same kind of insane to suddenly have this knee-jerk reaction to everything that has anything to do with their religion. If I were a Muslim, I'd be more insulted by the fact that everyone thinks that I'd literally explode at the very first perceived slight towards Muhammad. But maybe, that's why I'm not a Muslim.

I think that a lot of what's happening today with relation to violent Islamism has to do with the fact that it's a wounded animal, and although I'm not a hunter, I understand that they are the most dangerous -- but it can't go on much longer. So kill it with laughter, and vive la liberté​.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Islam is only special to you, because as Eriksson says, you have your own illusion of what it is.
If you could just stick to everyone else's definition of what islam is, maybe you'd realize that we do not see it as special.

As garbled as Frag's posts on this matter are he is essentially correct - Islam is both a religious faith and a political movement. The former is compatible with Western values whilst the latter isn't because it requires the state to be ruled by Muslims under Sharia Law.

This idea is in the Koran, that Muslims should be in charge, and so far as that goes there is something fundamentally different about Islam's foundational document vs Christianity's.

Judaism sort of sits in a middle ground - whilst it is a political movement it isn't an expansionist one or one that prevents submission to a higher political authority (such as a the Persian or Roman Emperors).

It's like Christians who believe non-Christians go to heaven - it's not in the Bible and there's no scriptural justification for it without a lot of complex theological wrangling.

[Brenus]

"I heard that the perpetrators' families have been detained." The 2 suspects are orphans... So, what families? And no, French Police doesn't take hostage.

"So there is a basic tenet of atheism, after all, isn't there?" Of course there is one: not believing in supra-natural. After this, nothing is required...

[Husar]

It's like Christians who believe non-Christians go to heaven - it's not in the Bible and there's no scriptural justification for it without a lot of complex theological wrangling.

What about people who never heard of the message such as most of the Mayas, Aztecs and so on?

[Kralizec]

It's happening. Marine le Pen is using this attack to promote her own style of socially acceptable (or so they think), middle-class xenophobia for the petit-bourgeois. Won't be long before her dad mentions it to their traditional electorate who are more attracted to vintage racism.

I wasn't really familiar with Charlie Hebdo before this massacre, but I'm pretty sure the victims would have had a problem with being used by these miscreants.

[Montmorency]

PVC's point about political Islam is correct and mirrors my own, which put another way interprets political Islam as a reactionary ideology with a religious vehicle.

Furthermore, Islam is popular among these reactionaries because it gives them an identity in opposition to the big bad West (i.e. Christianity).

[Leet Eriksson]

This idea is in the Koran, that Muslims should be in charge, and so far as that goes there is something fundamentally different about Islam's foundational document vs Christianity's.

This is wrong, there is our own "Render unto caesar" hadith on this, its also in the Qur'an, and considered binding. But basically if you're in a non-muslim country their rule of law applies.

This is also both supported by Azhar, and Saudi clerics, and were brought over to france and broadcast on middle eastern TV with regards to the burqa ban they had instated.

[Don Corleone]

I wonder how many people died of drug overdoses, alcohol poisoning or suicide in Paris yesterday.

The enemy is not Islam. The enemy is despair. Radical Islam is a cover for people like this. The illusion of separate self is too strong... too strong in them, too strong in all of us.

[Leet Eriksson]

I wonder how many people died of drug overdoses, alcohol poisoning or suicide in Paris yesterday.

The enemy is not Islam. The enemy is despair. Radical Islam is a cover for people like this. The illusion of separate self is too strong... too strong in them, too strong in all of us.

With the details released of the criminals, they seem to have a past criminal record, apparently they have planned for this for years. This is exactly like elliot rodgers or breivik, unpredictable and completely off their rockers.

[Fragony]

I wonder how many people died of drug overdoses, alcohol poisoning or suicide in Paris yesterday.

The enemy is not Islam. The enemy is despair. Radical Islam is a cover for people like this. The illusion of separate self is too strong... too strong in them, too strong in all of us.

They weren't all that sorry for that cop they finished of with a single bullet while running, good training.