France Shoot-Out

[Gilrandir]

That works both ways. The west is going to get tired of this at some point, you can only go so far, that point hasn't been reached yet but they sure are doing a good job of getting there.

Since it was not the first accident of the kind (and with this particular magazine too) it was quite sensible to introduce some security measures in the building, no?

[Fragony]

Since it was not the first accident of the kind (and with this particular magazine too) it was quite sensible to introduce some security measures in the building, no?

Accident? What accident, was there an accident, I heard of no accident. What would be sensible is simply not having islamists here so that we can just live in peace with eachother, the French used to have a perfect solution called the oubliette. The guiliotine is too much honour.

[Fragony]

http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven....html#comments

first video.

Leftist people know, for a fact, that it has nothing to do with islam.

Bur maybe, pretty maybe, it really does.

ediit, linking doesn't work, first video at geenstijl.nl, livestreams paris.

press that button, abd show them that there really just happens to be something more powerfull than Allah, it only has to be done once before they get the message.

[Brenus]

"Then do not complain when you get what you got." S I feel offended but this. Can I kill you? Or will take some caution? I feel offended by poeple pretended a man went on the wing-horse to Paradise, can I start to kill Muslims? It offends my atheism, deeply. Can I kill all the one who offend me?

[Leet Eriksson]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...613488,00.html

"We have a lot of new friends, like the pope, Queen Elizabeth and (Russian President Vladimir) Putin. It really makes me laugh," Bernard Holtrop, whose pen name is Willem, told the Dutch centre-left daily Volkskrant.

"Marine Le Pen is delighted when the Islamists start shooting all over the place,"

He added: "We vomit on all these people who suddenly say they are our friends."

Dude knows where they stand.

Also "Willem stressed that Charlie Hebdo must continue to publish. "Otherwise, (the Islamists) have won."

Keep making fun of dumb fascists Charlie Hebdo.

[Fragony]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...613488,00.html

"We have a lot of new friends, like the pope, Queen Elizabeth and (Russian President Vladimir) Putin. It really makes me laugh," Bernard Holtrop, whose pen name is Willem, told the Dutch centre-left daily Volkskrant.

"Marine Le Pen is delighted when the Islamists start shooting all over the place,"

He added: "We vomit on all these people who suddenly say they are our friends."

Dude knows where they stand.

Also "Willem stressed that Charlie Hebdo must continue to publish. "Otherwise, (the Islamists) have won."

Keep making fun of dumb fascists Charlie Hebdo.

I like how they think. I'll excuse the pope though as I honestly think he is a really good man.

[Slyspy]

Since it was not the first accident of the kind (and with this particular magazine too) it was quite sensible to introduce some security measures in the building, no?

Perhaps you fail to understand how central satire (even bad satire) and other criticism is to western society and political landscape? Perhaps it is slightly different in Ukraine. Also they had policemen guarding the building and access to the building was controlled be a pass code. How much more security do you think a magazine publisher would require and receive?

[Leet Eriksson]

Perhaps you fail to understand how central satire (even bad satire) and other criticism is to western society and political landscape? Perhaps it is slightly different in Ukraine. Also they had policemen guarding the building and access to the building was controlled be a pass code. How much more security do you think a magazine publisher would require and receive?

The terrorists got in by threatning one of the people working there (who had her daughter at the time with her) to let them in. So yeah its not so much a failure of anyone or anything, just really bad timing.

http://www.haaretz.co.il/news/picoftheday/1.2534649

in particular:

[Gilrandir]

Perhaps you fail to understand how central satire (even bad satire) and other criticism is to western society and political landscape? Perhaps it is slightly different in Ukraine. Also they had policemen guarding the building and access to the building was controlled be a pass code. How much more security do you think a magazine publisher would require and receive?

"Then do not complain when you get what you got." S I feel offended but this. Can I kill you? Or will take some caution? I feel offended by poeple pretended a man went on the wing-horse to Paradise, can I start to kill Muslims? It offends my atheism, deeply. Can I kill all the one who offend me?

You have misunderstood me. Nothing was further from my intentions than justifying the murders. Yet there are some considerations which were somehow conspicuous to people when they offered their vision on situation in Ukraine and which they fail to see now.
A little more than a year ago some people here said that bad moves by the new Ukrainian government in Feburary and March were enough to make Russian-speakers in the East of the country feel frightened and insecure and to make Russia feel threatened and likely to be cheated of its vested interests. They said that the Ukrainian government was stupid enough to start poking the bear with a stick, so it's no wonder the bear got angry.
Now let's see what has happened with the magazine.
It is a matter of common knowledge that there are some provinces of human spiritual life which some (groups of) people consider sacred. Consequently, mocking them might make the corresponding layer of society humiliated, disgusted and outraged. One's freedom of speech ends where another person's freedom (of faith, of feelings) starts. If you disregard this principle, be not suprised of the reaction you provoked. The editorial staff know that one of groups, whose faith tenets and persons are targeted by it, contains excessively aggressive individuals. The conclusion should have been: one can't go about insulting religious views of an aggressive minority without some kind of repercussion to come. It looked like poking a lion (cheetah, hyena, black widow spider - pick any animal you associate the terrorists with) with a stick. If the staff had realized it, it should have definitely taken excessive security measures or have changed the attitude to what/who it mocked.
Another issue that has so far escaped attention here is who is to blame in it.
Superficially, it's the islamists/jihadists/muslems....
But, as Master Brenus teaches us, let's see who benefits most. I see three possible beneficiaries:
1. All kinds of nazis in Europe and in France especially. It is one more chance for them to say: "We told you so" and enjoy more electoral support from the population.
2. Euroskeptics, especially in GB, who are likely to press on with measures limiting entrance/immigration to EU.
3. Russia. For it what has happened is a chance for:
a) distraction of Europe's attention from what it has done and is still doing in Ukraine.
b) appeal to Europeans to ally with it in a fight against the common enemy (i.e. the world terrorism) and aspiration to again appear on one side of the barricades with the western world from which it (personifying in Putin) has been so exhibitory excluded in Brisbane.

[Montmorency]

A false comparison.

[Fragony]

that's kinda funny when it comes from you, Captain Relativation SPEAKS

[Rhyfelwyr]

This CNN article sums up my feelings on the issue.

The attack was sick and depraved and there is no justification for it whatsoever. At the same time, I do not agree with the material in these Charlie Hebdo cartoons. Their stuff is about shock value - deliberately intended to be offensive and non-constructive. It is a gross abuse of freedom of expression and it would be well within the bounds of traditional Western ideals of free speech to ban such material as obscene or as hate speech - you can cry about PC-stifling and Sharia and Big Brother all you like, but its all nonsense because we've always said that some stuff it just not acceptable. I expect the vast majority of those around the world who struggled for free speech, and many who do so today, would agree with me in this.

And regardless of whether or not they have the legal right to publish such stuff, there is the question of whether it is morally right to do so. I don't agree with Islam but at the same time I don't go out of my way to make a mockery of Muslims' beliefs in the most outrageous and disrespectful ways, and I think that to do so would be morally wrong.

Of course, none of this excuses this atrocity. I am not Charlie Hebdo, but my thoughts and prayers are with the families of its staff and all those who were the victims of this terrorism.

[Montmorency]

Have you actually seen the images?

[Rhyfelwyr]

Have you actually seen the images?

If I haven't been misled in my Google search, they include naked pictures of Mohammed showing his genitals etc, and images of leading Christian characters engaged in sexual acts. That last one was so shocking I can't even bring myself to type out exactly who and what it involved.

I really hope that people do not become so polarized as to convince themselves that this sort of stuff somehow represents Western values of free expression, or that it is acceptable in mainstream Western culture. I hope that it never is.

I deplore this loss of innocent life to Islamic terrorism, but I can't support what Charlie Hebdo does.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

If I haven't been misled in my Google search, they include naked pictures of Mohammed showing his genitals etc, and images of leading Christian characters engaged in sexual acts. That last one was so shocking I can't even bring myself to type out exactly who and what it involved.

I really hope that people do not become so polarized as to convince themselves that this sort of stuff somehow represents Western values of free expression, or that it is acceptable in mainstream Western culture. I hope that it never is.

I deplore this loss of innocent life to Islamic terrorism, but I can't support what Charlie Hebdo does.

Nobody is asking you to support it -- merely tolerate its presence for those adults who do.

I have never checked out the websites of NAMBLA or the Aryan Nation, and were I to do so I suspect it would be with stunned incredulity and a strong dose of nausea. Nevertheless, Freedom of Speech requires that they have a right to speak about their particular brand of filth. ACTING on it, or specific incitement of violent civil disobedience, changes it to a "clear and present" danger and makes it actionable.

I rather imagine that neither you or I would find the Hebdo brand of "journalism" personally valuable -- I certainly have not tossed even one sou in their direction -- but they have their right to speak.

I condemned the use of public funds for Serrano's "piss Christ" and I find the theme of Ontiveros' cartoons regarding the Holy Father a bit annoying, but both artists are perfectly within their rights to make such artistic statements. Nor was my faith shattered by reading The Da Vinci Code or Angels and Demons. I enjoyed the novels as such and moved on. However offensive or contrarian these depictions may have been, they simply cannot come between me and my faith.

I do not dispute that what Charlie Hebdo printed was offensive -- I rather think that that was their intent. Find it offensive, condemn it, call for civility, counter-attack IN KIND -- all such responses would be reasonable. To respond with violence is abhorrent.

To me, it also suggests some quality of fear. Why do so many radicalized Muslims allow their faith to be challenged by the statements of a non-believer? For, unless it is a true challenge to your faith, how can it harm you? If you have the courage of your own convictions -- a real faith -- then the maunderings of the unenlightened are irrelevant. However, if you fear for your own sense of faith, perhaps you will lash out -- in fear -- to prevent yourself from thinking and fearing more.

Just musing a bit....