France Shoot-Out

[rory_20_uk]

As I have argued, multicultural societies (wherever there is a dominant culture or not) are well aware of decency frontiers and normally don't cross them.

OK quick example - the campaign to ban page 3 from the Sun newspaper has been celebrating its success... in enforcing their view on everyone else and hence is censorship. The women were all over 18, chose to do it and some even view it as an act of feminism. Their argument is a step towards stopping women bieng viewed as objects... oddly enough no moves against make up / wonderbra / shampoo adverts though...

So, good news or bad news? Frankly I couldn't care less.

[Brenus]

“So I see that you took upon himself the right to decide what others can or can't like and do. In what way is it better than censorship?” you ask me a question, I answer, and you are in the war path…

“I would like you to state the law which says that you can name a drawing school after Hitler (because you admire him as a painter) or a vegetarian club after him (for the well-known reasons), but you can't call a think tank after Goebbels.” Err? First I do not like Hitler paintings, too shallow, and what are you talking about? Who spoke about a drawing school named Hitler? You are not making sense.

“Does it mean that the killed was guilty?” Yeah, exactly this. And that is why the Black “community” in the US is so up-set, because it is exactly that.

“CH's pictures say” What the drawings said? Do you really know? I am telling you: they were/are against racism, death penalty, bigotry and dictatorship, even religious one. So if the Le Pen family would say the same things, I would agree with them. But they don’t and that why CH crew was atheist, humanists and anarchists, when the Le Pen family are not. Your antagonism against me (and I fully understand it) drives you on an unknown and mined field. As you, “I start smelling a faint odor of hypocrisy.”

“You again fail to see that the violence was not unprovoked.” The violence was unprovoked by CH. Perhaps you missed the point, but the attack was done on the name of pictures published several years ago. The violence is provoked only and uniquely by the obscurantist Muslim religious mob and the Capo di capo. The obscurantist Muslims religious fanatics choose to be offended (or faint to) in order to gain political points in their fight for supremacy on the Muslim population. And when you don’t obey, they kill you.

“Yet they utilized the situation to the full extent and harvested all they could.” You are under any qualification… I self-censure: "well aware of decency frontiers and normally don't cross them." Obviously, you are not.

“Now these are barbarians and those in Eastern Ukraine are oppressed minorities with a valid reason to feel insecure and threatened” What is the threat on Islam by CH, exactly? Well, except telling them the reality of the Holly Texts, and destabilising the faith of few of them? As Ukraine is concern, I provided all the answer you need in another debate, so, I will refer you to them.

[Gilrandir]

OK quick example - the campaign to ban page 3 from the Sun newspaper has been celebrating its success... in enforcing their view on everyone else and hence is censorship. The women were all over 18, chose to do it and some even view it as an act of feminism. Their argument is a step towards stopping women bieng viewed as objects... oddly enough no moves against make up / wonderbra / shampoo adverts though...

So, good news or bad news? Frankly I couldn't care less.

I think this is a misplaced example. It has nothing to do with groups in a multicultural society and their awareness of each others' sensitive issues.

“I would like you to state the law which says that you can name a drawing school after Hitler (because you admire him as a painter) or a vegetarian club after him (for the well-known reasons), but you can't call a think tank after Goebbels.” Err? First I do not like Hitler paintings, too shallow, and what are you talking about? Who spoke about a drawing school named Hitler? You are not making sense.

You said one can admire some features of universally recognized villains. One of such features (or rather abilities) is Hitler's (dubious) talent of a painter. So if I admire this very aspect of his, can I call a painting school after him without you rushing to attack me with your hackles up?

“CH's pictures say” What the drawings said? Do you really know? I am telling you: they were/are against racism, death penalty, bigotry and dictatorship, even religious one.

Well, I like it. You are telling me something which is reason enough to agree. You are interpreting CH's policy according to YOUR understanding of it. Many Muslims all over the world don't see it that way. Perhaps the reason why France is having these problems is inabilty to see the situation with different eyes, to place oneself in another's shoes.

Your antagonism against me (and I fully understand it) drives you on an unknown and mined field.

Again you fail to see what causes "this antagonism". It is your inconsistency (if you don't like the word "hypocrisy") in similar cases - people being dissatisfied with cultural/spiritual issues.

“You again fail to see that the violence was not unprovoked.” The violence was unprovoked by CH. Perhaps you missed the point, but the attack was done on the name of pictures published several years ago.

So since then CH has stopped publishing pictures of this kind? I think they have pursued their policy through many years. And their latest issue bears me out.

The violence is provoked only and uniquely by the obscurantist Muslim religious mob and the Capo di capo. The obscurantist Muslims religious fanatics choose to be offended (or faint to) in order to gain political points in their fight for supremacy on the Muslim population. And when you don’t obey, they kill you.

You somehow didn't buy it when I said that turmoils in Ukraine are provoked only and uniquely by Russia. Replace "Muslims blah-blah-blah" in this post by "Russians" and you will have my description of what has happened and is happening in Eastern Ukraine.

“Now these are barbarians and those in Eastern Ukraine are oppressed minorities with a valid reason to feel insecure and threatened” What is the threat on Islam by CH, exactly?

It isn't. In this case it was other feelings that were evoked - humiliation and annoyance. Yet in both cases (Ukraine and France) it ended in violence.

Meanwhile, there APPEARS some evidence which reveals that Russia isn't wholly unconnected to CH episode.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/france-five...attack-1484291

[rory_20_uk]

I think this is a misplaced example. It has nothing to do with groups in a multicultural society and their awareness of each others' sensitive issues.

Headscarves and cartoons in France would come high on the list.
The whole "Trojan horse" school governors thing in the UK would be another example.
Female Genital Mutilation a third.
Forced marriages.
Honour killings - we tend to think it is a bad thing in the West.

[Greyblades]

If ever there was a time for a martin luther style reformation of the islamic faith, it's now.

[Brenus]

“You are interpreting CH's policy according to YOUR understanding of it. Many Muslims all over the world don't see it that way.” Nope. The racism you claim CH displayed is inexistent. By the way, CH was in Court for Racism by various Religious Groups, and all claims dismissed. Le Pen family as well lost all their cases against the newspaper.
So obviously, you didn’t look at their drawings: It seems you are like a colour blind person trying to describe a rainbow.
Their atheism is clear and limpid. To draw a picture of someone else prophet is not racism, it is anti-clericalism or anti-religions. Not to obey someone else rules is part of freedom and in the frame of the law is a right we gain by fights. The many Muslims you refer to have nothing to say about what is allowed or not by the French Laws. I don’t see why these fanatic religious obscurantists would have a word to say about what we can say or draw.
The racists are the ones claiming for exception.

“So since then CH has stopped publishing pictures of this kind?” Never, but that was not why the Muslim fanatics scum bags claim they did the slaughter for. By the way, CH did the same with all religions and political parties.

“It is your inconsistency”: words words words.

“You somehow didn't buy it when I said that turmoils in Ukraine are provoked only and uniquely by Russia.” Different scenario indeed. The newspaper attacked or killed, or stormed no one, as mentioned in another intervention.
Nice try to switch France with CH. Try again

And the Chechen, according to French media, just ordinary bank robbers, apparently... But well try. And since when Chechen Islamists are allied with Russia?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

If ever there was a time for a martin luther style reformation of the islamic faith, it's now.

Different dynamic. Islam is not really a hierarchic "catholic" church. It is already divided into sects as is Christianity.

They probably ARE in need of someone who wishes to reform them a bit, I cannot disagree with that part of your statement at all.

Would they hold a "Congress of the faith" and create a negotiated "Caliph of the faithful" then we might see a reformer chosen to bring their traditions together in the spirit of a people of "service."

Currently, those offering themselves up as Caliph seem to be of a more of the Arnaud Amalric style of spreading the faith. Not at all a good thing.

[Hax]

If ever there was a time for a martin luther style reformation of the islamic faith, it's now.

Because that went totally fine.

What you're seeing in Syria/Iraq right now is your reformation.

[Greyblades]

Different dynamic. Islam is not really a hierarchic "catholic" church. It is already divided into sects as is Christianity.

True, but christianity wasnt exactly unified either, what with the great schism and all. Plus I couldnt think of any other event that so forced a major religion into reforming to survive in a new era that could apply to islam.

Because that went totally fine.

What you're seeing in Syria/Iraq right now is your reformation.

Yes, I am quite aware of the results of the reformation, thank you.

They are and are going to continue killing eachother anyway, it's quite likely they will lose thier taste for inter-faith warfare the way christians did, might as well hope they gain a modernisation of thier outdated practices while they're at it.

[Hax]

Yes, I am quite aware of the results of the reformation, thank you.

Hey, no problem!

They are and are going to continue killing eachother anyway, it's quite likely they will lose thier taste for inter-faith warfare the way christians did, might as well hope they gain a modernisation of thier outdated practices while they're at it.

[Greyblades]

Huh, I could have sworn that the idea was to keep the arabs killing eachother while we make off with the oil.

Someone had better tell the the rest of the org because we've been under the impression that all the factions who could reform islam for the better have given up or died for a good 3 years now.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Different dynamic. Islam is not really a hierarchic "catholic" church. It is already divided into sects as is Christianity.

They probably ARE in need of someone who wishes to reform them a bit, I cannot disagree with that part of your statement at all.

Would they hold a "Congress of the faith" and create a negotiated "Caliph of the faithful" then we might see a reformer chosen to bring their traditions together in the spirit of a people of "service."

Currently, those offering themselves up as Caliph seem to be of a more of the Arnaud Amalric style of spreading the faith. Not at all a good thing.

Only in the last twenty years has the schism caused by the Council of Chalcedon sixteen centuries ago finally been healed. That argument was literally older than Islam.

In any case, the Reformation only took root in North Western Europe and it was primarily the result of a failure of dialogue within the Church that itself had been through several internal reformations in the past. Which is to say, "The Reformation" is not really the name we give to the intellectual movement for reform, but to the bloody centuries of violence and persecution that resulted from it.

Anyway, Islam has already been through multiple reformation movements, the last few have mostly involved rejection of classical philosophy in favour of the Koran and revelation - so like the Protestants, really.

Bloody cursed Protestants.

[Brenus]

"Bloody cursed Protestants." This is an highly offensive opinion. If some come to kill you for your offense, you will be guilty of offending them. Be prepared!!!!!

[Gilrandir]

“You are interpreting CH's policy according to YOUR understanding of it. Many Muslims all over the world don't see it that way.” Nope. The racism you claim CH displayed is inexistent.

I didn't claim anything. But the problem with your bias lingers: it's not important what I or other people in the backroom claim. What matters is what Muslims all over the world think. Obviously, they see it not the way you do. And that's what counts.

So obviously, you didn’t look at their drawings: It seems you are like a colour blind person trying to describe a rainbow.

I can't claim to have followed the career of CH closely, yet I have seen some pictures of theirs. But again, MY opinion is the least to count with, because (read half a dozen lines above).

Their atheism is clear and limpid. To draw a picture of someone else prophet is not racism, it is anti-clericalism or anti-religions.

You can be atheist all right. Only there is no need to insult others if they are not. The chief tenet of atheism I offered (and you agreed with) should be "be nice to everyone irrespective of what they believe (don't believe) into". CH was anything but nice.

Not to obey someone else rules is part of freedom and in the frame of the law is a right we gain by fights.

This one is a motto to remember since it can be a universal answer to all your negative comments about Ukraine and about the scum bags you referred to. They chose not to obey... (see two lines above).

“You somehow didn't buy it when I said that turmoils in Ukraine are provoked only and uniquely by Russia.” Different scenario indeed. The newspaper attacked or killed, or stormed no one, as mentioned in another intervention.
Nice try to switch France with CH.

Yet the whole of France (and half of Europe) is buzzing with excitement and counter-terrorist measures are being introduced. Surely, France is not in the least affected by CH pranks. The common thing in both cases was the hurt feelings that caused the turmoils.

And the Chechen, according to French media, just ordinary bank robbers, apparently...

You were the one to call me not to trust media with their agenda and intent to manipulate. Follow your advice.

Only in the last twenty years has the schism caused by the Council of Chalcedon sixteen centuries ago finally been healed.

Yet it didn't bring all western christians under one governance.

[rickinator9]

You can be atheist all right. Only there is no need to insult others if they are not. The chief tenet of atheism I offered (and you agreed with) should be "be nice to everyone irrespective of what they believe (don't believe) into". CH was anything but nice.

The chief tenet of Atheism is the belief that there is no god, not that you should be nice to people regardless of their beliefs. Of course being kind is an important character trait but I wouldn't say it is the most important issue in Atheism itself, just as kindness isn't the most important issue for Theists.

Charlie Hebdo doesn't need to be nice. It is a satirical magazine. It ridicules to improve society. While people in this case have died in the process of improving society, I think Europe as a whole will benefit from this attack since more and more people get to know the true evil that is Islam.

[Hax]

more people get to know the true evil that is Islam.

Hi, I don't really know you -- but this statement seems to be pretty insane.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The chief tenet of Atheism is the belief that there is no god, not that you should be nice to people regardless of their beliefs. Of course being kind is an important character trait but I wouldn't say it is the most important issue in Atheism itself, just as kindness isn't the most important issue for Theists.

Charlie Hebdo doesn't need to be nice. It is a satirical magazine. It ridicules to improve society. While people in this case have died in the process of improving society, I think Europe as a whole will benefit from this attack since more and more people get to know the true evil that is Islam.

Charlie Hebdo are not responsible for what happened, on the other hand, the first cover they printer after the attack was offensive to all Muslims.

That's not satire, it's crass.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Hi, I don't really know you -- but this statement seems to be pretty insane.

He's pretty unpleasant.

[Gilrandir]

The chief tenet of Atheism is the belief that there is no god, not that you should be nice to people regardless of their beliefs.

You didn't read carefully my message. I said that being nice is the chief tenet that I offered and Brenus seconded.

Charlie Hebdo doesn't need to be nice. It is a satirical magazine. It ridicules to improve society.

If it sees insulting others as improvement, well, it shouldn't complain of repercussions. Certain elements of the society may see elimination of CH as an improvement.

[Fragony]

Charlie Hebdo are not responsible for what happened, on the other hand, the first cover they printer after the attack was offensive to all Muslims.

That's not satire, it's crass.

No, it's the best reply they could have made. Muslims wil just have to get used to their religion not being sacred here. You have no right to not be offended.

[rickinator9]

Hi, I don't really know you -- but this statement seems to be pretty insane.

I might be insane, but here I am just stating my opinion. Any religion that promotes violence or has hateful texts in its scripture is evil in my eyes.

[Beskar]

Hi, I don't really know you -- but this statement seems to be pretty insane.

Rick is a pretty cool guy.

Not sure where his recent views came from though, because calling a few crazies as being typical of Islam is like saying those who strongly oppose Islam are wannabe Anders Breiviks.

[Hax]

I might be insane, but here I am just stating my opinion.

Well, okay -- but your opinion is incredibly misinformed. That's my opinion.

Any religion that promotes violence or has hateful texts in its scripture is evil in my eyes.

Right, and who made you an expert on Islam?

[Brenus]

“That's not satire, it's crass.” What? “All is forgiven”? That was the first title… Is it offensive?



Or this one:


It says: For a dying magazine printing 30,000 before to now the biggest selling one. Who's the genius who had this idea?

Yeap, very offensive indeed

[rickinator9]

Rick is a pretty cool guy.

Not sure where his recent views came from though, because calling a few crazies as being typical of Islam is like saying those who strongly oppose Islam are wannabe Anders Breiviks.

I have been critical of Islam for a few years now, but now that I have been gaming less I have had more time to think about politics and the like. You would be a fool to not see that there are problems with our new 'countrymen': a large percentage is them has antisemitic views, they form cultural and religious enclaves where they barely ever speak to a Dutch person, a large amount of crime from these people. What frustrates me most of all is that most politicians don't recognize these problems. Only one major party does really.

Well, okay -- but your opinion is incredibly misinformed. That's my opinion.



Right, and who made you an expert on Islam?

You don't need to have expert knowledge to make conclusions. What makes you an expert on Islam?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The problem with painting all of Islam with the "evil" brush is that it is a sweeping generalization. Westboro Baptist is a collection of nimrods, but they are not representative of all Baptists, etc.

[Fragony]

The problem with painting all of Islam with the "evil" brush is that it is a sweeping generalization. Westboro Baptist is a collection of nimrods, but they are not representative of all Baptists, etc.

A muslim is just someone who is born muslim. Doesn't mean he submits. Is islam evil, I don't know it has values of it's own, these values are not compatible with our values though.

[Hax]

You don't need to have expert knowledge to make conclusions.

Well newsflash: your conclusions are wrong:D

What makes you an expert on Islam?

Hmm, growing up with a Muslim father; knowing at least something about Islamic theology; studying Arabic and Persian for four years in Leiden and Paris. Far from an expert still, but I think maybe slightly more qualified.

I have been critical of Islam for a few years now, but now that I have been gaming less I have had more time to think about politics and the like. You would be a fool to not see that there are problems with our new 'countrymen':

Wait, you mean to say that social problems might arise as a consequence of mass immigration and ghettofication. No way /s

But seriously -- blaming Islam for problems associated with immigrants from third world countries is like blaming Roman Catholicism for tensions in early 20th century America with regards to the Irish and Italians, f.ex. Correlation still​ does not equal causation. Pick up a book.

A muslim is just someone who is born muslim.

al-hamdu li-llah yâ akhî Fragon. Did you convert to Islam, because this is seriously an Islamic point of view.

[Fragony]

So what if it resonates, is there point in it

[Hax]

cf. Lipka Tatars.